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Hotline Warez Ethics
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Following is a discussion taken from the news area of an unspecified Hotline 1.2.3 server during January of 1998. The news posts have been rearranged, from oldest to newest, (unlike Hotline news which is reversed), so that you can read downwards in chronlogical order. Irrelevant, off-topic posts have also been removed in order to maintain the fluidity of the discussion. This discussion does contain a few offensive words and remarks. -- Editor __________________________________________________________ Hotline™ has become a rather widely used application among warez distributors, but I don't think many have taken the time to consider the possibilities and ethics involved in pirated software. Most (even those who use and distribute warez) see pirating as a negative action. When companies begin to lose business (such as Apple did recently), users begin an outcry of "Don't post this file," but the reality is that the current system of distributing software is failing. We are at the dawn of the technology gap. This gap has begun to seperate those who can afford technology and those who can not into two distinct classes. It is the role of pirated software to close this gap - to make the technology and iinformation that will determine the future available to everyone. And it is this cause the Hotline™ community should be working towards - the cause of freedom of technology and freedom of information. Those who chose to limit who can access technology and information for their own gain are doing a disservice to this cause. I envoke you to do your part in the freedom of all information and technology by distributing for free anything that is sold and not limiting this distribution to anyone. Everyone deserves access to technology whether they be wealthy or poor, Mac user or PC user, and Hotline™ is only the beginning of a revolution that will guarantee that everyone has the access they deserve. By letting small differences divide us, we are only hurting the coming revolution. I ask you to feed the revolution, free the technology, share the information, and do nothing to support those who would hurt this cause. -=-NoahNelse __________________________________________________________ From Lacey (Jan15 14:30): I have to admit, I WANT the software more than I NEED the software. I would never buy it in the first place, so the software companies are losing nothing off me. I think of it in terms of God's laws versus Man's laws. I know that God could care less if I take software from companies who really and truly AREN't losing anything off of SW piracy (it's the people purchasing the SW that lose, they pay more, supposedly. But then, who knows how much is actually lost, it does tend to be a convenient excuse for raising prices, don't you think?) But it does have potential for being a "slippery slope" In other words, I justify this thievery, what's to stop me from taking a program that generates fake serial numbers, and to use them and justify that thievery by saying I'm only hurting the big companies, they can afford it. Only a natural disaster or world war would bring our economy down. In the meantime, really the only people we're hurting is other consumers. __________________________________________________________ From NoahNelse (Jan15 14:45): lacey, I agree that we should all be following God's laws (and our own morality) over those of man. I submit to you that if we all followed the teachings of whatever faith we have, there would be no need for money because we would all give willingly to one another. Compassion for one another is a creed of nearly every religion I can think of, yet it is rarely followed by anyone. A society in which companies (or individuals) voluntarily give software away is the ideal (though unlikely) society I would choose to work for, which I am doing now by making it more difficult for them to charge money for their software. I am consistantly amazed at everyone's lack of faith in the individual. You say "Only a natural disaster or world war would bring our economy down." I ask you what government or economy of the past has not failed. There is none, and that is because the individuals who make up such structures are flawed, and so the structure itself becomes flawed. The US economy will fall, inevitably simply because everything imperfect does, and the only question is what will be put in it's place. The objective must be to create an awareness in people of how each person affects the rest of humanity (the power of the individual) and a compassion for each individual in doing so. If it will be a world war which will change our economy, it will certainly be one begun by an individual. __________________________________________________________ From reck (Jan15 15:17): What, I post a criticism of your "ethic" and it gets deleted? Like I really want to be a part of an organization that doesn't allow itself to be criticized! All I was saying, is that I think we're just trying to fool ourselves if we use fancy language and sophistry to legitimize what is obviously amoral and unethical behavior. We are stealing; we take and use the product of someone else's labour, without giving them recompense of any kind; we break the letter of the law, too, and try to cloak our behavior in some kind of redefinition of morality. Unfortunately, thieves have been trying to do this forever. It's true; societal definitions of property and theft may, to you, be immoral. You may not agree with them. Hey, that's cool! But shouldn't THAT be what we are talking about here - the incongruity of definition, cognitive dissonance and social behavior - rather than simply trying to pretend we're all great gals and girls? Especially when we're USING these products that people have slaved away on, many of them for YEARS, these people who deserve to be paid so they can feed and clothe their kids and themselves, so they can go to college or send a wife or husband to college? I mean, really.. Let's be honest here. __________________________________________________________ From NoahNelse (Jan15 15:27): Someone named reck messaged me with this and then left before I had a chance to reply, so I'll post it in the news and reply there. "What, I post a criticism of your "ethic" and it gets deleted? Like I really want to be a part of an organization that doesn't allow itself to be criticized!" I encourage criticism. The news is periodically archived to save time loading, but I'm sure you're criticism is in the archive. You can't reasonably expect me to never reload the news, can you? No one would ever come here. "All I was saying, is that I think we're just trying to fool ourselves if we use fancy language and sophistry to legitimize what is obviously amoral and unethical behavior. We are stealing; we take and use the product of someone else's labour, without giving them recompense of any kind; we break the letter of the law, too, and try to cloak our behavior in some kind of redefinition of morality." I think everyone has their own morality...there is no definition, nor am I providing any "redefinition." I'm simply providing my own morality. I would certainly not say these are the morals of everyone. Obviously they are not. "Unfortunately, thieves have been trying to do this forever. It's true; societal definitions of property and theft may, to you, be immoral. You may not agree with them. Hey, that's cool! But shouldn't THAT be what we are talking about here - the incongruity of definition, cognitive dissonance and social behavior - rather than simply trying to pretend we're all great gals and girls? Especially when we're USING these products that people have slaved away on, many of them for YEARS, these people who deserve to be paid so they can feed and clothe their kids and themselves, so they can go to college or send a wife or husband to college?" I've already addressed this serveral times, but I'll shortly address it again. I think anyone who can not make enough money to survive from voluntary payment for products is in the wrong business. It takes very little to survive, and almost anyone can make that much. Anything beyond survival is a luxury and is not deserved until everyone in the world has enough to survive (which they don't.) "I mean, really.. Let's be honest here." I'm trying. __________________________________________________________ From Big Daddy (Jan15 22:48): As I sit here downloading and reading this information, one objection to things that all of the posts say comes to mind. According to all moral philosophers (Socrates, Aristotle, Kant to name a few examples), there is no such thing as relative morals. The moral code is a fixed code. This means that one cannot say that they pirate software because it does not violate *their* moral code. The only argument is over what the moral code really is. I realize that this is hard to believe without proof and I encourage you to go read any moral philosophy from the library. P.S. I realize that I named all western philosophers, and there are other accepted philosophers who do not say the same thing. However, this is the generally accepted view. __________________________________________________________ From NoahNelse (Jan16 06:27): big daddy, I agree that everyone knows what is right and what is wrong, but not everyone chooses to accept the same things as right or wrong, regardless of what they know. This is what creates a difference in people's morals...maybe there is a better word for it other than morals, but I can't think of one. Either way, these differing morals are the ones I speak of when I say something like "these are my morals." I am not speaking of universal morals in this case, though I do think a compassion for those in need is one of these universal morals, whether or not the majority of the population chooses to follow it. __________________________________________________________ From Mr_Yuck (Jan16 15:21): I don't think it should surprise any of us that technology is coming to be dominated by an elite. Social stratification in this country is somthing that is largely ignored. IRS records for income reported in the last 10 years clearly show the widening gap between the rich, middle class and poor. With the number making up the middle class steadily shrinking. In political science the phrase "knowledge is power" is widely used, but I think few have taken this to heart until now. The punnishment of those who try and seek information that they cannot afford to outright purchase is not unlike that affected upon poachers during the middle ages... those who would try to trap a deer in the kings forest for their own consumption... while the elite nobility make sport of the same resource. Hotline has been in many ways a "sherwood forest" to me in the sence that it initially offered a shelter from the tyrany of an information elite (software publishers),and encouraged the exchange of ideas and information. Now I feel that this free realm of ours has been violated as well. By and by the internet has become a commercial sector, policed by the elite to protect their commerce. No longer will it be an arena for the "free" exchange of information and ideas. I am open to suggestions. MrYuck __________________________________________________________ From Not-∑L∑∑† (Jan16 15:28): My opinion on Warezing: If I use the application alot (i.e. a game I like); or make money by using it (i.e.Photoshop); I will buy it. Software (ESPECIALLY GAMES) have come down in price; and if you want companies to survive and make more, better games; you support them. If it's a piece of software I'm just trying out, or use once in a blue moon (like some filters, etc) I will pull them off a warez disk, or get them online, etc. I really don't want to pay for something that I rarely use. I really don't give a rat's ass if you just collect warez like trading cards, or to accumulate a huge mass of them for status; that doesn't hurt the companies at all; because those are copies of the software that nobody is actually using; and there would have been no sale anyways; so no loss for the company. BUT, if you do use the programs on a regular basis; you should buy them.. it keeps the companies alive. my 2 cents.. __________________________________________________________ From NoahNelse (Jan16 15:37): Please consider this: One of the most successful companies in the gaming industry is Ambrosia, which survives soley on voluntary contributions. I don't think these games would really be considered shareware even, since they function no differently after they are registered. So before you say that pirating deprives software developers of their deserved money, please consider that pirating aside, people will always be more likely to take something for free than to pay for it, and this will be the downfall of any software company that relies on mandatory contributions for its success. Unrelated: I will be leaving for the weekend, so you have my preemptive appologies if the server crashes or if any other problems occur. __________________________________________________________ From Not-∑L∑∑† (Jan16 15:50): ambrosia?? one of the most sucessful??> uh.. BBzzzz. Wrong; But thanks for playing.... Amrosia makes some nice shareware-level games for the mac; but they are not Sierra, LucasArts, ID, activision, etc. etc. etc.etc. I'm a big fan of Andrew's work, and I used to shoot the shit with him a lot back when the warezing was going on on AOL a few years back. But one of the reasons that ambrosia has stayed a small, relatively poor company is because he gives the stuff away without protecting it. and unethical poachers don't bother to pay for it. Yes someone will always take something for free if they can, but it puts the creator in the position of no longer being able to afford to use their talents and create those products. __________________________________________________________ From NoahNelse (Jan16 15:59): okay, I have to respond to this before I go... I guess my definition of successful is different than yours. Ambrosia is certainly a popular company, and the software creators are able to sustain themselves and afford several luxories at that, no? I'm fairly certain that those behind Ambrosia are happy with what they have, and happiness is my definition of success. Money is useless if it doesn't make you happy. For some people it does, but for most I think, happiness comes from a different source. Either way, I'd define success in life as happiness, and I think in this respect, Ambrosia is on of the most, though admittedly not THE most, successful game developers today. __________________________________________________________ From Mr_Yuck (Jan16 16:15): Sure, lets examine the big guys... Activision, Lucas Arts et.al. I seriously doubt the extent of losses reported by these companies due to warez pups. Profitablity inspite of warez is up. Games are not cheaper today... they have remained relatively constant in their pricing. Examine the cost of a MicroProse game back in 1990... Silent Hunter 2. You payed between fourty and fifty dollars for it. Guess what? You still pay fourty- fifty bucks for a game today if not more. (Adjusting for inflation they may be a bit cheaper) I'm willing to venture that profitability for the large companies has increased rather than declined... why? They no longer have to pay for their software to be Beta Tested... they have all kinds of suckers willing to do that for free now. Their market niche has increased... greater competitive advantage: More joe blow Americans have computers today, particularaly wintel machines than EVER before. Face it, these companies are making a killing. And you get a bit of an idea on the markup for these games after they have been out for a year and you see the prices drop down to nineteen bucks. Probably what the game should have been released at in the first place. Last, and worst of all: Warez trading is actually a free form of advertising for these companies... kids who could never have afforded to purchase the game in the first place aquire it, show their friends, get addicted and ultimately buy the game because its much better if you have the actual CD-ROM... Many people who venture into warez trade could never have afforded to buy the game or product anyhow... so the company would not have seen the proffit from this individual, and again... now the company has the opportunity to hook this individual on the game... so that they will want the actual copy. And my last shot here... Shareware companies and freeware companies depending on your definition of success can be VERY successful... ever hear of GNU??? So you see... warez trading is actually an incideous bennefit to the software companies... your doing their advertising for them. Live Well and Perspire... Mryuck __________________________________________________________ From Riƒt° [31337 kLoWn] (Jan16 18:02): For Immediate Release: SPA Notification 1/13/98 The SPA has had several "sting operation" servers (heretofore referred to as Hotline Sites) using the Hot line Server software (page three). In accordance to the new laws regarding Pirated Software we have begun a more aggressive approach to curbing the illegal duplication and transference of copyrighted and trademarked electronic media. - We have placed tracking Resources (page five) within Software, both disabled, functional and non-functional (page four), at our Hot line Servers in order to better understand how pirated software is spread. If we Download a particular piece of software from another Hot line Server and it contains our resource, we know that it was Downloaded from us at some point, and then illegally transferred to another Hot line Server. In fact we have had several instances where our "marked" software has been Downloaded from one of our server's only to be Uploaded several days later at another. - We have compiled a list of those IP's who have transferred so-called "warez" and other illegal electronic media through our Hot line Servers. Fortunately, Hot line Server Software logs most of this for us. (page six, Attachment A-C) - We have operated these Server's for several months on all major "Trackers" (page three). Changing the name of some often, while leaving others alone. We have greatly increased our knowledge of Who, Where and How Pirated Software is being transferred. We have utilized "Accounts" (page three) at some of our Hot line Servers to show Intent and Aforethought for that individual in regards to Illegal and Pirated Software transfer. - Those fitting the recidivism profile (page two) will be notified. We are now in the process of notification of ISP Account holders, The ISP providers themselves, as well as Schools, Universities, etc... (page six) - Our main concern are so-called "warez", referring to Pirated Software and Illegal Software (ie.. Serial Number Generators, Credit Card Number Generators, and Lists or Compilations of Serial Numbers that qualify and function as a Software Application under specification 12-B), and Patching Software known as a "crack" or "hack". - Although our jurisdiction does not fall on these Electronic Media we have notified the proper Organizations (page 6 attachment D) in regards to: "Mp3's" (page four) and other electronic recordings of Copyrighted Music, Electronic Recordings of Copyrighted Visual Media (ie.. television programs that consist of the entire copyrighted material but not limited to the "Reviewer's Portion" (page four). Although it is admittedly difficult for us to review each and every piece of Image, Quicktime, AVI and Mpeg, etc... media out there, we have been in contact with, and continue to maintain contact with the proper affiliations (mainly INTERPOL and the respective copyright holders themselves) in regard to their transference. - We do continue and shall continue to operate Hotline Servers on all major Trackers. Future plans are outlined on Page Six, Attachment E. SPA Notification 01-B For Immediate Release 1/13/98 epn/frg encl. ll,pl,stu,std,ipl Pg. 1/6 At. A-E __________________________________________________________ From Lacey (Jan16 23:56): I tried to post something yesterday, but it timed out and I lost it. I MUST disagree with you, Noah, that everyone in the world has to have an equal share of the wealth. That's an idea that communism was built on, and we can see where it got those who practiced it. It's a wonderful idea on paper.... everyone contributes, and the results are distributed among all, but the reality was quite different, as we can see from the Soviet Union and Communist China. The fact is, I work to feed myself, and I do enjoy a few luxuries, I have a cell phone, and an internet service (that actually I am going to get rid of soon), I'm able to go out to dinner and the movies a few times a month. I do not practice Chrisitanity. I am a spiritualist and a metaphysician, which means I follow a path that is inner (God) directed, and I believe that people create their own reality, for the purposes of learning something. Something I've noticed is that when people are given something without having to earn it, their self esteem slips. Welfare is a trap! It's a quandary for me, because I want to help others. I used to have a friend that was on welfare, had three children, and constantly was broke. I took her food, I helped pay her babysitter so she could go out, I drove her around if something happened to her car. I preferred that so much to just giving my money away to some faceless charity I knew little about. But this girl, she was capable of working, but she did not get a job until faced with the new laws that made her get a job. And then she was much happier. Much more fulfilled. She was WORKING for her money. Human need to work. They need to. It helps if one loves their work, but I believe that some work is better than no work. For me personally, being out of work breeds depression which breeds an inability to look for work. I would much rather be working, so I can be proud of myself. __________________________________________________________ From Wong Fei Hong (Jan17 20:08): Should warez be freely distributed on Hotline? Yes!! Of course. The idea that knowledge and technology should be shared amongst all is really the best policy if warez servers are to flourish. When people say that this kind of thinking is Communist, they overlook the fact that they are not talking about the real world. In the real world Humans have basic needs for survival. They need food, shelter, warmth, clean water, and a place to shit and piss. On top of that however, everyone wants property and luxuries, and to have these things we need money. The truth is that in the real world, with its governments and establishments, people need money and capitalism and marketing. In the real world Communism leads to massive starvation and recession. But remember, Hotline is not the real world. There are no governments. Hotline is a collection of people with their Mac's and Pc's coming together for the sole purpose of sharing information. Secondly, Hotline doesn't have a capitalist system. There is no form of currency or anything. People who run Hotline servers don't need uploads to put food on the table or keep their lights on and computers running. They have jobs for that (or they should). On Hotline food and money don't exist. It would be impossible for a capitalist system to work as efficiently as in the real world. However a kind of pseudo communist system of shared information would be perfect. The fact that communist ideas look good on paper and doesn't work in the real world is because the real world is not the correct environment for communism. However Hotline is. When you upload for an account on a site you are basically operating under a barter system. The difference though, is that you are not exchanging goods or services. You are exchanging a copy of something which you got for free, for something that they got for free. It seems kind of arbitrary that if all this pirated software was obtained without working for it then you should have to trade for it. Also, software is not hard goods; you can copy it at no expense to yourself. So all you folks with huge warez archives should consider that if you privatize your site, you are not making any profit. What people upload is of no expense to them and what they download is of no expense to yourself. __________________________________________________________ From scAlpel (Jan18 01:19): I have a feeling that the SPA post further down is a hoax...anyone else? __________________________________________________________ From Lacey (Jan18 02:15): Wong, when I was speaking of Communism, I was responding to Noah's comments that the wealth needs to be spread out. Never works in reality. That's all... information OUGHT to be shared freely, but everyone keep their MITTS OFF my money! LOL. That's all. __________________________________________________________ From Lacey (Jan18 02:17): About the SPA post, no I have a very bad feeling it is real... although why they'd let it get to be public, I don't know... scare everyone off HL so they don't have to make actual arrests. Hey, with the new laws, they have even more reason to prosecute us violent offenders! __________________________________________________________ From ShadowX<MX> (Jan18 06:40): I want Hotline for Unix (Server) if u know where i can find it, please e-mail me at [email protected] Thanks! __________________________________________________________ From †mama (Jan18 10:03): I think that SPA post is a fake. Can the SPA make arrests? Remeber, according to that Macworld article (thanks) we are just a bunch of teenagers with names like †H√§. Wasted time. By the way, i dont think Hotline "News" warnings is very smart...but a SPA warning trojan would be.......... but then theres the dynamic IP issue........ __________________________________________________________ From Lacey (Jan18 11:51): The new laws would make us worthwhile, I think. We may not be selling the stuff, but to even have it on our computers is enough. I forget the actual amounts that you can be fined, but they are large! I don't know if they can arrest you, but I believe that they can. What I want to know is, does anyone know any of the names of these HL servers? __________________________________________________________ From buas (Jan18 22:53): Here's my current thoughts on all of this information-sharing. First of all, I'd like to continue a minute with the Ambrosia discussion from below. I know that Ambrosia is just a case-in-point which Noah extrapulated from some part of his brain to emphasize the successfullness of a shareware gaming company. I love the game, Escape Velocity, an Ambrosia product. It's a lot of fun, it's involving, and it's expandable. However, I will never, ever purchase it. This is because I read in an Ambrosia FAQ that they have *no* plans on continuing to develop past the 1.0x version that it's at. You don't pack luggage onto a sinking ship. Based on this small fact, I have no intention of buying *any* of Ambrosia's software. Even though I love everything they make. I'm glad that they're successful creating new products, but I won't support them if their idea of success is to accumulate money for an immediately discontinued product. Yet, this is not the main point I'd like to make. Rather, I would like to address Noah's discussion about the individual's role in changing the world. First, I believe that while the past is better treated as a lesson than a role model, I don't believe that history necessarily repeats itself unwittingly or deliberately. That is, I don't believe that the fall of Rome is indicative of the fall of the US economy. Lessons are learned, the world grows up a bit, precautions are made. (And yet, the Titanic sinks and quake-proof buildings still fall to the ground.) Hmmm... I'm listening to some weird radio show while writing this and I don't know if any of it is making sense. I know there's a point in here somewhere. And one more thing which Lacey brought up (Jan 16 23:56), my mother worked to raise three kids. She did it by being on welfare, asking for help from people, sleeping around, whatever it took. And she got a college degree to boot. She looks back on those decades and wonders how she did it. So do we. My point here is that sometimes there is a deeper drive behind the reasons why we work. I'm sure no one works becuase that is what they must do. No, they work to make money, because they enjoy it, because they're not imaginative enough to think of something else. Conversely, those who do not work resist labor for reasons other than the simple "act" of not working. Yet, I have to apologize, because none of these points relate directly to the concept of sharing information freely on the web. I did not mean to turn this discussion into a batting-down of morals or beliefs. I am, however, glad that I can have a little place to put down my ascii ... __________________________________________________________ From Xplo (Jan18 23:15): I wanted to say that I love your server.. the posts in the news are intelligent and rational, and relate to something which concerns us all (that is, data piracy). For my own opinion, I think that people who can AFFORD to do so should pay for software that they use.. I know that the companies make more money than they need, but they do deserve some payback for the Pepsi sweat of their coders. OTOH, there's no reason why people who can't afford software should be forced to pay for what costs the maker nothing. Those who would assert that ANY piracy is criminal invariably can't identify what a poor pirate deprives a company of.. because the companies are deprived of nothing. No crime (as morality sees it, not as the law sees it) has been committed. And indeed, isn't it wrong to deprive people of the tools to create new things? I use Photoshop to make my web site look better.. can any man say what harm I do in making the Web a nicer place? As I type this, I am in the process of DLing Fontographer, with which I will make fonts that - if they turn out to be any good - will be distributed to the public. By taking away my warez, you take those fonts away from the public.. is that not more criminal than any act of mine? ********************************************************** From menthe (Jan19 03:57): i know that there are not a lot of servers where one can spout some philosophical bullshit and have ppl actually read and appreciate it, but i flipped through most of everybodys rants about intellectual property rights versus warez versus free product advertising vs crime this afford that - and to me it all seems like its written by one person. thats all. __________________________________________________________ Hotline™ has become a rather widely used application among warez distributors, but I don't think many have taken the time to consider the possibilities and ethics involved in pirated software. Most (even those who use and distribute warez) see pirating as a negative action. When companies begin to lose business (such as Apple did recently), users begin an outcry of "Don't post this file," but the reality is that the current system of distributing software is failing. We are at the dawn of the technology gap. This gap has begun to seperate those who can afford technology and those who can not into two distinct classes. It is the role of pirated software to close this gap - to make the technology and iinformation that will determine the future available to everyone. And it is this cause the Hotline™ community should be working towards - the cause of freedom of technology and freedom of information. Those who chose to limit who can access technology and information for their own gain are doing a disservice to this cause. I envoke you to do your part in the freedom of all information and technology by distributing for free anything that is sold and not limiting this distribution to anyone. Everyone deserves access to technology whether they be wealthy or poor, Mac user or PC user, and Hotline™ is only the beginning of a revolution that will guarantee that everyone has the access they deserve. By letting small differences divide us, we are only hurting the coming revolution. I ask you to feed the revolution, free the technology, share the information, and do nothing to support those who would hurt this cause. -=-NoahNelse P.S. Please read the news archives to find out how I have responded to previous arguements before you offer the same. __________________________________________________________ From NoahNelse (Jan19 20:05): I reloaded the news. It was too large. There seem to be two themes of discussion, so I’ll respond to them both. First that SPA thing....that just sounds nothing like an official government document, and I highly doubt it is real, but I guess I have no way of knowing. Either way, it doesn’t matter to me. And now for Lacey, I don't think that everyone deserves an equal share, just enough to survive. I'm not a communist. I do, however, think that it is ridiculous of you to sight how communism has failed. So has capitalism. So has everything. No economic system has succeeded yet, simply because the world is not perfect yet. Those examples you sighted failed because they were forced on the population. This is why I am for voluntary socialism. I don’t think you can logically argue that sharing is bad. Granted, the software companies do not choose to share, but that is another issue which I have already covered, and unrelated for the most part to the purpose of this server, as I certainly was not the first to pirate. I think posessions breed greed which breeds jealousy which breeds unhappiness. In poverty is true happiness and freedom. To quote Janis Joplin if I may "freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose." __________________________________________________________ From Lacey (Jan20 15:50): Don't get me wrong. I would like to point out, though, that capitalism has worked quite a bit better than communism, and I never said you were a communist. I simply said that what you said seemed like a rather communist ideal, and communism failed, and it failed for a reason. Communism, to my knowledge, hasn't been around that long, maybe 100 years. It's a BEAUTIFUL theory! Everyone works for the good of all, you take and spread the goods that people make. The reality was, it breeded HUGE amounts of waste very quickly, people weren't seeing the benefits of their work, so they figured, what were they working for, so morale and production fell. There was no way to move the goods, because everything was so ineffecient, and there was no incentive to make it effecient, so food rotted. People stood in line for hours to get a simple roll of toilet paper, etc. Capitalism, on the other hand, has worked a far sight better. Where else can a person work for themselves and make money with very little governmental regulation? Me, I am nowhere near rich myself, but I do work hard for my money, and do not like giving it to our government who seem to waste it fairly effectively. I'm not overly fond of giving it to private agencies either, same reason, waste. There is an ever widening gap between the rich and the poor, but the poor do have a choice about that. They too, can invest their money, and find ways to not pay as many taxes. I invest in a 401k plan as well as in a private mutual fund. I do not invest a lot, maybe 100 a month between the two investments, but it pays back! That money can hurt some months, but when I think of the rewards... well, I can't say capitalism doesn't work then, because it works wonders! Actually, when I think of that, I say God bless America! I don't think we understand how lucky we've got things. Me included. I would have hated living in the dark ages, or at a time when women were really second class citizens, and children were property... even those of us in this country that are poor are better off than in a so called "third world country" where poverty takes on a whole new meaning. Yep, just my two cents again. __________________________________________________________ From NoahNelse (Jan20 19:33): Lacey, Communism failed, as I have already said, because it was forced. You can not give up the ideal, though, simply because it has yet to be achieved. You should always strive for perfection, even though we are so far from it, and I believe the socialist ideal of a sharing society is the perfect economic system. Capitalism is a failure. You are judging capitalism based on how it has benefited you with no regard to its faults. I see any economic system which allows people to starve to death, regardless of what the reason may be, as a failure. No matter how wealthy someone such as yourself may get, capitalism has not helped humanity in the least. I am truly sorry to see how much joy you seem to take in the wealth you have acquired. It is almost as if you feel no compassion for your fellow humans who continue to starve. Perhaps you are a prime example of the shortcomings of capitalism. In the end, the economic system is not important. It is what you do that matters. Money is merely an obstacle to good. There is no amount of money you will be satisfied with, but in poverty is real freedom. Without money, there are no desires to restrain you. The wealthy are the true opressed. __________________________________________________________ From NoahNelse (Jan20 19:39): I haven't seen Arcane for a while...if anyone knows what happened to him or his server, please tell me. __________________________________________________________ From kk (Jan20 19:52): Communism ideology may be attractive but in reality, it's a slow evolving economic system that very much brandishes every human being from their individuality. Capitalism is true individualism, without out it, we would not be as far as we are today. It's more than about economy, it's about freedom. I would rather live in poverty and be free to serve myself or those whom i choose than to be part of a human "hive". __________________________________________________________ From NoahNelse (Jan20 19:58): I would rather live in poverty than in great wealth as well, but I do not see working to benefit fellow humans as a negative thing. You use the word "hive" with a negative conotation, yet in a hive, don't all the bees prosper? Whether you choose to accept it or not, the future of others is yours as well. If you choose not to help others, you will be hurt by that decision. If you choose to help others, you will benefit. If you choose to give up on ideology, reality will simply become intolerable. It is hoping for more than seems possible that has driven humanity forward, and will continue to do so. Working towards good is always good, whether or not you can achieve that good. I see the sharing of all resources with all of humanity as a good thing. __________________________________________________________ From Zappa (Jan20 20:26): Great site - great ethics. Kind of place I'd like to upload all those hard-won apps I think everyone should have :-) __________________________________________________________ From I Love DMB (Jan20 22:28): i have a completely free server, i love your idea i upped a text __________________________________________________________ From Evaluation Abuser (Jan21 01:36): Here is my opinion: Here is how BIG software companies make LOTS OF money: They LICENSE their software to be packaged with new computers when they are bought. Apple makes a SH*TLOAD of money by LICENSING their operating system to companies that make mac clones. Claris makes a SH*TLOAD of money LICENSING ClarisWorks on all those macs that got sold to schools. And Microsoft makes a F*CKLOAD of money LICENSING Windoze 95 to countless companies that make computers. I mean, lets face it. How many people do you know BOUGHT Windoze 95 at a store? Nawwww....It came INSTALLED on the computer. How many people have uploaded those damn games like Descent that come for free with their computer to warez sites? Nobody makes any money selling software at the store! Companies make money LICENSING software to companies who make HARDWARE. __________________________________________________________ From NoahNelse (Jan21 16:18): i knwo that his message falls on temporarily deaf ears, but i am interested in joining the real free community. i run a completely free 68k software server, which fits right in with the idea of providing technology to bridge the gap.. thanks alot ***@***.*** I got this message from "I Love DMB," but I prefer not to use email, so if this individual would please choose a time, I'd be happy to talk to them here or at another server. Thanks. __________________________________________________________ From Lacey (Jan22 14:16): Noah, I have no idea how old you are, I make no assumptions. But let me tell you a little about myself. I am 27, newly divorced, female, no kids, two dogs. I never completed college, couldn't hack it. I am by no means rich. I believe I've stated that before. I do work in tech support, and contrary to popular belief, it's not the path to riches, at least, not where I am at. I am working on changing that. I am telling you all this so you know I'm not some 14 year old kid who doesn't know a thing about which s/he speaks. (Sorry to all the 14 year olds, but you just haven't lived long enough to KNOW) All philosophical arguments aside, here is my reality. I make 9.00 an hour, about 1100 a month. 430 of that goes to rent, and I have a low rent. That leaves me 670 (approx.) a month. Well, I have more than 450 that goes to bills, past stupidities, my investments, etc. That leaves me around 150 for food, taking care of my dogs, going out, etc. etc. Anyway, it gets spent, and it gets spent fast. I never feel like I have enough money to take care of myself much less the rest of the world. I never wish I were wealthy, I would hate the responsibility. My investments are 5% of my gross pay, about 60-80 a month, and 25 a month into a mutual fund. No getting wealthy there. I just wanted to spell out my situation so that you can't do this high horse thing with me again acting like I have so much money, so much wealth. I do not have it. When I pointed out that I was investing, I meant, look at what even a "poor" (monetarily speaking) person can do to improve their situation. I consider myself to be poor. It's a major concern with me, and I have been looking for another job since November. I mean really, I have to take care of me before I can take care of anyone else, which is why I don't have any kids, and why I live alone, except for two dogs. And I don't consider it my job to save the world anyway. I'm just trying to make myself a better person, and I try to contribute in ways that I am good at, like being generous with people I do know and care about, being loving to everyone I meet, no matter how much they tick me off or upset me, by being open and honest and real, by being a friend to all I meet, by forgiving quickly and not holding grudges. If everyone did just that, those little tiny things, this world would improve by leaps and bounds, and the economy would have nothing to do with it. __________________________________________________________ From NoahNelse (Jan22 15:42): Lacey, I assume from what you wrote that when I tell you my age I will lose most of my credibility in your eyes, but I think I am overly mature for my age, and I if my words and actions do not state this, then certainly withholding my age will not. I am 17. I live with my mother, a teacher, also newly divorced, and not incredibly wealthy. Other than shelter, I pretty much sustain myself. I buy most of my own food and whatever else I would want to own. I realize you will see m as a hypocrite, as I own more than I need to survive, but after I have completed my education (after college), I do intend to go into voluntary poverty. Until then, I'm afraid I would cause my mother undo stress by taking this step. I would hope you have not found me overly critical of your posistion. I would certainly not ask anyone to give so much that it made it difficult for them to live, but I witness the excess that is American capitalist society constantly and it sickens me. We should not be allowed to live in such luxury here, ignoring those who are fighting to survive. I would not include you, based on what you have told me, in the group of those in luxury nor those struggling to survive. You seem to have roughly, and possibly a small amount more than, the necessities. I regret if I seem to be on a "high horse." I am imperfect, as I will readily admit. But I am working to improve society as well as myself, and those who would give up on socialist ideals because of either their own greed or false impressions of what exactly the ideal is are generally apathetic towards the state of their fellow human. I agree with you completely that change must start with the individual. I would hope to reach as many individuals as possible. I would certainly not advocate a socialist economic system in any country unless an overwhelming majority of the citizens were for it. But I maintain that in any compassionate and educated society, socialism would be the system of choice. __________________________________________________________ From NoahNelse (Jan22 15:48): One more thing. I considerate everyone's job to save the world. I believe we are all increasingly involved in the events of the world, and so if we should not choose to save the world out of compassion for others, we should at least do so out of concern for our own futures. There may very well be another art student in Germany whom you care very little about now. But when he is leading an army threatening to take over the world you live in, you will wish you had begun saving it earlier. I would not say that everyone should do monumental deads, though. Every positive action you take is a step to save the world. I would only ask that you should take more of these. __________________________________________________________ From Chilly (Jan22 19:25): so basically you are sayign warez is not ethically right ?? well neither are mp3's which are on this server , i myslef am a local musician,and when you distribute these, you are takign away are hard earned money, we work our asses off for months even years to produce these songs,and then tour, so if your goign to be ethical, be 100% ethical. Thank you __________________________________________________________ From NoahNelse (Jan22 19:31): I think this is a good example of an uninformed statement. As for MP3s and other works of art, I would hope that the artist would be creating their work for reasons of expression rather than profit. If not, I should hope they would choose another vocation. I know that for myself, I have bought a few CDs after hearing songs on MP3 first, so in this function, as well as that of distributing amature music, I would think that MP3s would have a positive effect on the music industry as a whole. From B art (Jan24 06:11): And to you NoahNelse, being 17 is cool and your fresh-eyed view is as valid as my 42yr old one , However when you have your own children , want to change the world through politics and look back at how all your old school chums are doing, well, then take it from me a little bread ain’t no crime. I used to pat myself on the back for the exact same ideals, no-one else did or does though!! __________________________________________________________