Hotline Warez Ethics

Original document can be viewed at https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/computing/hotline_info/1998-01-HotlineWarezEthics.pdf

Following is a discussion taken from the news area of an
unspecified Hotline 1.2.3 server during January of 1998. The
news posts have been rearranged, from oldest to newest,
(unlike Hotline news which is reversed), so that you can
read downwards in chronlogical order. Irrelevant, off-topic
posts have also been removed in order to maintain the
fluidity of the discussion. This discussion does contain a
few offensive words and remarks. -- Editor

__________________________________________________________
Hotline™ has become a rather widely used application among
warez distributors, but I don't think many have taken the
time to consider the possibilities and ethics involved in
pirated software. Most (even those who use and distribute
warez) see pirating as a negative action. When companies
begin to lose business (such as Apple did recently), users
begin an outcry of "Don't post this file," but the reality
is that the current system of distributing software is
failing.
We are at the dawn of the technology gap. This gap has
begun to seperate those who can afford technology and those
who can not into two distinct classes. It is the role of
pirated software to close this gap - to make the technology
and iinformation that will determine the future available to
everyone. And it is this cause the Hotline™ community
should be working towards - the cause of freedom of
technology and freedom of information.
Those who chose to limit who can access technology and
information for their own gain are doing a disservice to
this cause. I envoke you to do your part in the freedom of
all information and technology by distributing for free
anything that is sold and not limiting this distribution to
anyone. Everyone deserves access to technology whether they
be wealthy or poor, Mac user or PC user, and Hotline™ is
only the beginning of a revolution that will guarantee that
everyone has the access they deserve. By letting small
differences divide us, we are only hurting the coming
revolution.
I ask you to feed the revolution, free the technology, share
the information, and do nothing to support those who would
hurt this cause.
-=-NoahNelse
__________________________________________________________
From Lacey (Jan15 14:30):
I have to admit, I WANT the software more than I NEED the
software. I would never buy it in the first place, so the
software companies are losing nothing off me. I think of it
in terms of God's laws versus Man's laws. I know that God
could care less if I take software from companies who really
and truly AREN't losing anything off of SW piracy (it's the
people purchasing the SW that lose, they pay more,
supposedly. But then, who knows how much is actually lost,
it does tend to be a convenient excuse for raising prices,
don't you think?) But it does have potential for being a
"slippery slope" In other words, I justify this thievery,
what's to stop me from taking a program that generates fake
serial numbers, and to use them and justify that thievery by
saying I'm only hurting the big companies, they can afford
it. Only a natural disaster or world war would bring our
economy down. In the meantime, really the only people we're
hurting is other consumers.
__________________________________________________________
From NoahNelse (Jan15 14:45):
lacey,
I agree that we should all be following God's laws (and our
own morality) over those of man. I submit to you that if we
all followed the teachings of whatever faith we have, there
would be no need for money because we would all give
willingly to one another. Compassion for one another is a
creed of nearly every religion I can think of, yet it is
rarely followed by anyone. A society in which companies (or
individuals) voluntarily give software away is the ideal
(though unlikely) society I would choose to work for, which
I am doing now by making it more difficult for them to
charge money for their software.
I am consistantly amazed at everyone's lack of faith in the
individual. You say "Only a natural disaster or world war
would bring our economy down." I ask you what government or
economy of the past has not failed. There is none, and that
is because the individuals who make up such structures are
flawed, and so the structure itself becomes flawed. The US
economy will fall, inevitably simply because everything
imperfect does, and the only question is what will be put in
it's place. The objective must be to create an awareness in
people of how each person affects the rest of humanity (the
power of the individual) and a compassion for each
individual in doing so. If it will be a world war which
will change our economy, it will certainly be one begun by
an individual.
__________________________________________________________
From reck (Jan15 15:17):
What, I post a criticism of your "ethic" and it gets
deleted? Like I really want to be a part of an organization
that doesn't allow itself to be criticized!
All I was saying, is that I think we're just trying to fool
ourselves if we use fancy language and sophistry to
legitimize what is obviously amoral and unethical behavior.
We are stealing; we take and use the product of someone
else's labour, without giving them recompense of any kind;
we break the letter of the law, too, and try to cloak our
behavior in some kind of redefinition of morality.
Unfortunately, thieves have been trying to do this forever.
It's true; societal definitions of property and theft may,
to you, be immoral. You may not agree with them. Hey, that's
cool! But shouldn't THAT be what we are talking about here -
the incongruity of definition, cognitive dissonance and
social behavior - rather than simply trying to pretend we're
all great gals and girls? Especially when we're USING these
products that people have slaved away on, many of them for
YEARS, these people who deserve to be paid so they can feed
and clothe their kids and themselves, so they can go to
college or send a wife or husband to college?
I mean, really.. Let's be honest here.
__________________________________________________________
From NoahNelse (Jan15 15:27):
Someone named reck messaged me with this and then left
before I had a chance to reply, so I'll post it in the news
and reply there.
"What, I post a criticism of your "ethic" and it gets
deleted? Like I really want to be a part of an organization
that doesn't allow itself to be criticized!"
I encourage criticism. The news is periodically archived to
save time loading, but I'm sure you're criticism is in the
archive. You can't reasonably expect me to never reload the
news, can you? No one would ever come here.
"All I was saying, is that I think we're just trying to fool
ourselves if we use fancy language and sophistry to
legitimize what is obviously amoral and unethical behavior.
We are stealing; we take and use the product of someone
else's labour, without giving them recompense of any kind;
we break the letter of the law, too, and try to cloak our
behavior in some kind of redefinition of morality."
I think everyone has their own morality...there is no
definition, nor am I providing any "redefinition." I'm
simply providing my own morality. I would certainly not say
these are the morals of everyone. Obviously they are not.
"Unfortunately, thieves have been trying to do this forever.
It's true; societal definitions of property and theft may,
to you, be immoral. You may not agree with them. Hey, that's
cool! But shouldn't THAT be what we are talking about here -
the incongruity of definition, cognitive dissonance and
social behavior - rather than simply trying to pretend we're
all great gals and girls? Especially when we're USING these
products that people have slaved away on, many of them for
YEARS, these people who deserve to be paid so they can feed
and clothe their kids and themselves, so they can go to
college or send a wife or husband to college?"
I've already addressed this serveral times, but I'll shortly
address it again. I think anyone who can not make enough
money to survive from voluntary payment for products is in
the wrong business. It takes very little to survive, and
almost anyone can make that much. Anything beyond survival
is a luxury and is not deserved until everyone in the world
has enough to survive (which they don't.)
"I mean, really.. Let's be honest here."
I'm trying.
__________________________________________________________
From Big Daddy (Jan15 22:48):
As I sit here downloading and reading this information, one
objection to things that all of the posts say comes to mind.
According to all moral philosophers (Socrates, Aristotle,
Kant to name a few examples), there is no such thing as
relative morals. The moral code is a fixed code. This
means that one cannot say that they pirate software because
it does not violate *their* moral code. The only argument
is over what the moral code really is. I realize that this
is hard to believe without proof and I encourage you to go
read any moral philosophy from the library.
P.S. I realize that I named all western philosophers, and
there are other accepted philosophers who do not say the
same thing. However, this is the generally accepted view.
__________________________________________________________
From NoahNelse (Jan16 06:27):
big daddy,
I agree that everyone knows what is right and what is wrong,
but not everyone chooses to accept the same things as right
or wrong, regardless of what they know. This is what
creates a difference in people's morals...maybe there is a
better word for it other than morals, but I can't think of
one. Either way, these differing morals are the ones I
speak of when I say something like "these are my morals." I
am not speaking of universal morals in this case, though I
do think a compassion for those in need is one of these
universal morals, whether or not the majority of the
population chooses to follow it.
__________________________________________________________
From Mr_Yuck (Jan16 15:21):
I don't think it should surprise any of us that technology
is coming to be dominated by an elite. Social
stratification in this country is somthing that is largely
ignored. IRS records for income reported in the last 10
years clearly show the widening gap between the rich, middle
class and poor. With the number making up the middle class
steadily shrinking. In political science the phrase
"knowledge is power" is widely used, but I think few have
taken this to heart until now. The punnishment of those who
try and seek information that they cannot afford to outright
purchase is not unlike that affected upon poachers during
the middle ages... those who would try to trap a deer in
the kings forest for their own consumption... while the
elite nobility make sport of the same resource. Hotline has
been in many ways a "sherwood forest" to me in the sence
that it initially offered a shelter from the tyrany of an
information elite (software publishers),and encouraged the
exchange of ideas and information. Now I feel that this
free realm of ours has been violated as well. By and by the
internet has become a commercial sector, policed by the
elite to protect their commerce. No longer will it be an
arena for the "free" exchange of information and ideas.
I am open to suggestions.
MrYuck
__________________________________________________________
From Not-∑L∑∑† (Jan16 15:28):
My opinion on Warezing:
If I use the application alot (i.e. a game I like); or make
money by using it (i.e.Photoshop); I will buy it. Software
(ESPECIALLY GAMES) have come down in price; and if you want
companies to survive and make more, better games; you
support them.
If it's a piece of software I'm just trying out, or use once
in a blue moon (like some filters, etc) I will pull them off
a warez disk, or get them online, etc. I really don't want
to pay for something that I rarely use.
I really don't give a rat's ass if you just collect warez
like trading cards, or to accumulate a huge mass of them for
status; that doesn't hurt the companies at all; because
those are copies of the software that nobody is actually
using; and there would have been no sale anyways; so no loss
for the company.
BUT, if you do use the programs on a regular basis; you
should buy them.. it keeps the companies alive.
my 2 cents..
__________________________________________________________
From NoahNelse (Jan16 15:37):
Please consider this: One of the most successful companies
in the gaming industry is Ambrosia, which survives soley on
voluntary contributions. I don't think these games would
really be considered shareware even, since they function no
differently after they are registered. So before you say
that pirating deprives software developers of their deserved
money, please consider that pirating aside, people will
always be more likely to take something for free than to pay
for it, and this will be the downfall of any software
company that relies on mandatory contributions for its
success.
Unrelated: I will be leaving for the weekend, so you have
my preemptive appologies if the server crashes or if any
other problems occur.
__________________________________________________________
From Not-∑L∑∑† (Jan16 15:50):
ambrosia?? one of the most sucessful??>
uh.. BBzzzz. Wrong; But thanks for playing....
Amrosia makes some nice shareware-level games for the mac;
but they are not Sierra, LucasArts, ID, activision, etc.
etc. etc.etc.
I'm a big fan of Andrew's work, and I used to shoot the shit
with him a lot back when the warezing was going on on AOL a
few years back.
But one of the reasons that ambrosia has stayed a small,
relatively poor company is because he gives the stuff away
without protecting it. and unethical poachers don't bother
to pay for it.
Yes someone will always take something for free if they can,
but it puts the creator in the position of no longer being
able to afford to use their talents and create those
products.
__________________________________________________________
From NoahNelse (Jan16 15:59):
okay, I have to respond to this before I go...
I guess my definition of successful is different than yours.
Ambrosia is certainly a popular company, and the software
creators are able to sustain themselves and afford several
luxories at that, no? I'm fairly certain that those behind
Ambrosia are happy with what they have, and happiness is my
definition of success. Money is useless if it doesn't make
you happy. For some people it does, but for most I think,
happiness comes from a different source. Either way, I'd
define success in life as happiness, and I think in this
respect, Ambrosia is on of the most, though admittedly not
THE most, successful game developers today.
__________________________________________________________
From Mr_Yuck (Jan16 16:15):
Sure, lets examine the big guys... Activision, Lucas Arts
et.al.
I seriously doubt the extent of losses reported by these
companies due to warez pups. Profitablity inspite of warez
is up. Games are not cheaper today... they have remained
relatively constant in their pricing. Examine the cost of a
MicroProse game back in 1990... Silent Hunter 2. You payed
between fourty and fifty dollars for it. Guess what? You
still pay fourty- fifty bucks for a game today if not more.
(Adjusting for inflation they may be a bit cheaper)
I'm willing to venture that profitability for the large
companies has increased rather than declined... why? They
no longer have to pay for their software to be Beta
Tested... they have all kinds of suckers willing to do that
for free now. Their market niche has increased... greater
competitive advantage: More joe blow Americans have
computers today, particularaly wintel machines than EVER
before. Face it, these companies are making a killing. And
you get a bit of an idea on the markup for these games after
they have been out for a year and you see the prices drop
down to nineteen bucks. Probably what the game should have
been released at in the first place.
Last, and worst of all: Warez trading is actually a free
form of advertising for these companies... kids who could
never have afforded to purchase the game in the first place
aquire it, show their friends, get addicted and ultimately
buy the game because its much better if you have the actual
CD-ROM...
Many people who venture into warez trade could never have
afforded to buy the game or product anyhow... so the
company would not have seen the proffit from this
individual, and again... now the company has the opportunity
to hook this individual on the game... so that they will
want the actual copy.
And my last shot here... Shareware companies and freeware
companies depending on your definition of success can be
VERY successful... ever hear of GNU???
So you see... warez trading is actually an incideous
bennefit to the software companies... your doing their
advertising for them. Live Well and Perspire...
Mryuck
__________________________________________________________
From Riƒt° [31337 kLoWn] (Jan16 18:02):
For Immediate Release:
SPA Notification 1/13/98
The SPA has had several "sting operation" servers
(heretofore referred to as Hotline Sites) using the Hot line
Server software (page three). In accordance to the new laws
regarding Pirated Software we have begun a more aggressive
approach to curbing the illegal duplication and transference
of copyrighted and trademarked electronic media.
- We have placed tracking Resources (page five) within
Software, both disabled, functional and non-functional (page
four), at our Hot line Servers in order to better understand
how pirated software is spread. If we Download a particular
piece of software from another Hot line Server and it
contains our resource, we know that it was Downloaded from
us at some point, and then illegally transferred to another
Hot line Server. In fact we have had several instances where
our "marked" software has been Downloaded from one of our
server's only to be Uploaded several days later at another.
- We have compiled a list of those IP's who have transferred
so-called "warez" and other illegal electronic media through
our Hot line Servers. Fortunately, Hot line Server Software
logs most of this for us. (page six, Attachment A-C)
- We have operated these Server's for several months on all
major "Trackers" (page three). Changing the name of some
often, while leaving others alone. We have greatly increased
our knowledge of Who, Where and How Pirated Software is
being transferred. We have utilized "Accounts" (page three)
at some of our Hot line Servers to show Intent and
Aforethought for that individual in regards to Illegal and
Pirated Software transfer.
- Those fitting the recidivism profile (page two) will be
notified. We are now in the process of notification of ISP
Account holders, The ISP providers themselves, as well as
Schools, Universities, etc... (page six)
- Our main concern are so-called "warez", referring to
Pirated Software and Illegal Software (ie.. Serial Number
Generators, Credit Card Number Generators, and Lists or
Compilations of Serial Numbers that qualify and function as
a Software Application under specification 12-B), and
Patching Software known as a "crack" or "hack".
- Although our jurisdiction does not fall on these
Electronic Media we have notified the proper Organizations
(page 6 attachment D) in regards to: "Mp3's" (page four) and
other electronic recordings of Copyrighted Music, Electronic
Recordings of Copyrighted Visual Media (ie.. television
programs that consist of the entire copyrighted material but
not limited to the "Reviewer's Portion" (page four).
Although it is admittedly difficult for us to review each
and every piece of Image, Quicktime, AVI and Mpeg, etc...
media out there, we have been in contact with, and continue
to maintain contact with the proper affiliations (mainly
INTERPOL and the respective copyright holders themselves) in
regard to their transference.
- We do continue and shall continue to operate Hotline
Servers on all major Trackers. Future plans are outlined on
Page Six, Attachment E.
SPA Notification 01-B For Immediate Release 1/13/98 epn/frg
encl. ll,pl,stu,std,ipl Pg. 1/6 At. A-E
__________________________________________________________
From Lacey (Jan16 23:56):
I tried to post something yesterday, but it timed out and I
lost it. I MUST disagree with you, Noah, that everyone in
the world has to have an equal share of the wealth. That's
an idea that communism was built on, and we can see where it
got those who practiced it. It's a wonderful idea on
paper.... everyone contributes, and the results are
distributed among all, but the reality was quite different,
as we can see from the Soviet Union and Communist China. The
fact is, I work to feed myself, and I do enjoy a few
luxuries, I have a cell phone, and an internet service (that
actually I am going to get rid of soon), I'm able to go out
to dinner and the movies a few times a month. I do not
practice Chrisitanity. I am a spiritualist and a
metaphysician, which means I follow a path that is inner
(God) directed, and I believe that people create their own
reality, for the purposes of learning something. Something
I've noticed is that when people are given something without
having to earn it, their self esteem slips. Welfare is a
trap! It's a quandary for me, because I want to help
others. I used to have a friend that was on welfare, had
three children, and constantly was broke. I took her food,
I helped pay her babysitter so she could go out, I drove her
around if something happened to her car. I preferred that
so much to just giving my money away to some faceless
charity I knew little about. But this girl, she was capable
of working, but she did not get a job until faced with the
new laws that made her get a job. And then she was much
happier. Much more fulfilled. She was WORKING for her
money. Human need to work. They need to. It helps if one
loves their work, but I believe that some work is better
than no work. For me personally, being out of work breeds
depression which breeds an inability to look for work. I
would much rather be working, so I can be proud of myself.
__________________________________________________________
From Wong Fei Hong (Jan17 20:08):
Should warez be freely distributed on Hotline? Yes!! Of
course. The idea that knowledge and technology should be
shared amongst all is really the best policy if warez
servers are to flourish. When people say that this kind of
thinking is Communist, they overlook the fact that they are
not talking about the real world. In the real world Humans
have basic needs for survival. They need food, shelter,
warmth, clean water, and a place to shit and piss. On top
of that however, everyone wants property and luxuries, and
to have these things we need money. The truth is that in
the real world, with its governments and establishments,
people need money and capitalism and marketing. In the real
world Communism leads to massive starvation and recession.
But remember, Hotline is not the real world. There are no
governments. Hotline is a collection of people with their
Mac's and Pc's coming together for the sole purpose of
sharing information. Secondly, Hotline doesn't have a
capitalist system. There is no form of currency or
anything. People who run Hotline servers don't need uploads
to put food on the table or keep their lights on and
computers running. They have jobs for that (or they
should). On Hotline food and money don't exist. It would
be impossible for a capitalist system to work as efficiently
as in the real world. However a kind of pseudo communist
system of shared information would be perfect. The fact
that communist ideas look good on paper and doesn't work in
the real world is because the real world is not the correct
environment for communism. However Hotline is. When you
upload for an account on a site you are basically operating
under a barter system. The difference though, is that you
are not exchanging goods or services. You are exchanging a
copy of something which you got for free, for something that
they got for free. It seems kind of arbitrary that if all
this pirated software was obtained without working for it
then you should have to trade for it. Also, software is not
hard goods; you can copy it at no expense to yourself. So
all you folks with huge warez archives should consider that
if you privatize your site, you are not making any profit.
What people upload is of no expense to them and what they
download is of no expense to yourself.
__________________________________________________________
From scAlpel (Jan18 01:19):
I have a feeling that the SPA post further down is a
hoax...anyone else?
__________________________________________________________
From Lacey (Jan18 02:15):
Wong, when I was speaking of Communism, I was responding to
Noah's comments that the wealth needs to be spread out.
Never works in reality. That's all... information OUGHT to
be shared freely, but everyone keep their MITTS OFF my
money! LOL. That's all.
__________________________________________________________
From Lacey (Jan18 02:17):
About the SPA post, no I have a very bad feeling it is
real... although why they'd let it get to be public, I don't
know... scare everyone off HL so they don't have to make
actual arrests. Hey, with the new laws, they have even more
reason to prosecute us violent offenders!
__________________________________________________________
From ShadowX<MX> (Jan18 06:40):
I want Hotline for Unix (Server) if u know where i can find
it, please e-mail me at [email protected] Thanks!
__________________________________________________________
From †mama (Jan18 10:03):
I think that SPA post is a fake. Can the SPA make arrests?
Remeber, according to that Macworld article (thanks) we are
just a bunch of teenagers with names like †H√§. Wasted time.
By the way, i dont think Hotline "News" warnings is very
smart...but a SPA warning trojan would be.......... but then
theres the dynamic IP issue........
__________________________________________________________
From Lacey (Jan18 11:51):
The new laws would make us worthwhile, I think. We may not
be selling the stuff, but to even have it on our computers
is enough. I forget the actual amounts that you can be
fined, but they are large! I don't know if they can arrest
you, but I believe that they can. What I want to know is,
does anyone know any of the names of these HL servers?
__________________________________________________________
From buas (Jan18 22:53):
Here's my current thoughts on all of this
information-sharing.
First of all, I'd like to continue a minute with the
Ambrosia discussion from below. I know that Ambrosia is just
a case-in-point which Noah extrapulated from some part of
his brain to emphasize the successfullness of a shareware
gaming company. I love the game, Escape Velocity, an
Ambrosia product. It's a lot of fun, it's involving, and
it's expandable. However, I will never, ever purchase it.
This is because I read in an Ambrosia FAQ that they have
*no* plans on continuing to develop past the 1.0x version
that it's at. You don't pack luggage onto a sinking ship.
Based on this small fact, I have no intention of buying
*any* of Ambrosia's software. Even though I love everything
they make. I'm glad that they're successful creating new
products, but I won't support them if their idea of success
is to accumulate money for an immediately discontinued
product.
Yet, this is not the main point I'd like to make. Rather, I
would like to address Noah's discussion about the
individual's role in changing the world. First, I believe
that while the past is better treated as a lesson than a
role model, I don't believe that history necessarily repeats
itself unwittingly or deliberately. That is, I don't believe
that the fall of Rome is indicative of the fall of the US
economy. Lessons are learned, the world grows up a bit,
precautions are made. (And yet, the Titanic sinks and
quake-proof buildings still fall to the ground.)
Hmmm... I'm listening to some weird radio show while writing
this and I don't know if any of it is making sense. I know
there's a point in here somewhere.
And one more thing which Lacey brought up (Jan 16 23:56), my
mother worked to raise three kids. She did it by being on
welfare, asking for help from people, sleeping around,
whatever it took. And she got a college degree to boot. She
looks back on those decades and wonders how she did it. So
do we. My point here is that sometimes there is a deeper
drive behind the reasons why we work. I'm sure no one works
becuase that is what they must do. No, they work to make
money, because they enjoy it, because they're not
imaginative enough to think of something else. Conversely,
those who do not work resist labor for reasons other than
the simple "act" of not working.
Yet, I have to apologize, because none of these points
relate directly to the concept of sharing information freely
on the web. I did not mean to turn this discussion into a
batting-down of morals or beliefs. I am, however, glad that
I can have a little place to put down my ascii ...
__________________________________________________________
From Xplo (Jan18 23:15):
I wanted to say that I love your server.. the posts in the
news are intelligent and rational, and relate to something
which concerns us all (that is, data piracy). For my own
opinion, I think that people who can AFFORD to do so should
pay for software that they use.. I know that the companies
make more money than they need, but they do deserve some
payback for the Pepsi sweat of their coders. OTOH, there's
no reason why people who can't afford software should be
forced to pay for what costs the maker nothing. Those who
would assert that ANY piracy is criminal invariably can't
identify what a poor pirate deprives a company of.. because
the companies are deprived of nothing. No crime (as morality
sees it, not as the law sees it) has been committed. And
indeed, isn't it wrong to deprive people of the tools to
create new things? I use Photoshop to make my web site look
better.. can any man say what harm I do in making the Web a
nicer place? As I type this, I am in the process of DLing
Fontographer, with which I will make fonts that - if they
turn out to be any good - will be distributed to the public.
By taking away my warez, you take those fonts away from the
public.. is that not more criminal than any act of mine?
**********************************************************
From menthe (Jan19 03:57):
i know that there are not a lot of servers where one can
spout some philosophical bullshit and have ppl actually read
and appreciate it, but i flipped through most of everybodys
rants about intellectual property rights versus warez versus
free product advertising vs crime this afford that - and to
me it all seems like its written by one person. thats all.
__________________________________________________________
Hotline™ has become a rather widely used application among
warez distributors, but I don't think many have taken the
time to consider the possibilities and ethics involved in
pirated software. Most (even those who use and distribute
warez) see pirating as a negative action. When companies
begin to lose business (such as Apple did recently), users
begin an outcry of "Don't post this file," but the reality
is that the current system of distributing software is
failing.
We are at the dawn of the technology gap. This gap has
begun to seperate those who can afford technology and those
who can not into two distinct classes. It is the role of
pirated software to close this gap - to make the technology
and iinformation that will determine the future available to
everyone. And it is this cause the Hotline™ community
should be working towards - the cause of freedom of
technology and freedom of information.
Those who chose to limit who can access technology and
information for their own gain are doing a disservice to
this cause. I envoke you to do your part in the freedom of
all information and technology by distributing for free
anything that is sold and not limiting this distribution to
anyone. Everyone deserves access to technology whether they
be wealthy or poor, Mac user or PC user, and Hotline™ is
only the beginning of a revolution that will guarantee that
everyone has the access they deserve. By letting small
differences divide us, we are only hurting the coming
revolution.
I ask you to feed the revolution, free the technology, share
the information, and do nothing to support those who would
hurt this cause.
-=-NoahNelse P.S. Please read the news archives to find out
how I have responded to previous arguements before you offer
the same.
__________________________________________________________
From NoahNelse (Jan19 20:05):
I reloaded the news. It was too large. There seem to be
two themes of discussion, so I’ll respond to them both.
First that SPA thing....that just sounds nothing like an
official government document, and I highly doubt it is real,
but I guess I have no way of knowing. Either way, it
doesn’t matter to me.
And now for Lacey,
I don't think that everyone deserves an equal share, just
enough to survive. I'm not a communist. I do, however,
think that it is ridiculous of you to sight how communism
has failed. So has capitalism. So has everything. No
economic system has succeeded yet, simply because the world
is not perfect yet. Those examples you sighted failed
because they were forced on the population. This is why I
am for voluntary socialism. I don’t think you can logically
argue that sharing is bad. Granted, the software companies
do not choose to share, but that is another issue which I
have already covered, and unrelated for the most part to the
purpose of this server, as I certainly was not the first to
pirate.
I think posessions breed greed which breeds jealousy which
breeds unhappiness. In poverty is true happiness and
freedom. To quote Janis Joplin if I may "freedom's just
another word for nothing left to lose."
__________________________________________________________
From Lacey (Jan20 15:50):
Don't get me wrong. I would like to point out, though, that
capitalism has worked quite a bit better than communism, and
I never said you were a communist. I simply said that what
you said seemed like a rather communist ideal, and communism
failed, and it failed for a reason. Communism, to my
knowledge, hasn't been around that long, maybe 100 years.
It's a BEAUTIFUL theory! Everyone works for the good of
all, you take and spread the goods that people make. The
reality was, it breeded HUGE amounts of waste very quickly,
people weren't seeing the benefits of their work, so they
figured, what were they working for, so morale and
production fell. There was no way to move the goods,
because everything was so ineffecient, and there was no
incentive to make it effecient, so food rotted. People
stood in line for hours to get a simple roll of toilet
paper, etc. Capitalism, on the other hand, has worked a far
sight better. Where else can a person work for themselves
and make money with very little governmental regulation? Me,
I am nowhere near rich myself, but I do work hard for my
money, and do not like giving it to our government who seem
to waste it fairly effectively. I'm not overly fond of
giving it to private agencies either, same reason, waste.
There is an ever widening gap between the rich and the poor,
but the poor do have a choice about that. They too, can
invest their money, and find ways to not pay as many taxes.
I invest in a 401k plan as well as in a private mutual fund.
 I do not invest a lot, maybe 100 a month between the two
investments, but it pays back! That money can hurt some
months, but when I think of the rewards... well, I can't say
capitalism doesn't work then, because it works wonders!
Actually, when I think of that, I say God bless America! I
don't think we understand how lucky we've got things. Me
included. I would have hated living in the dark ages, or at
a time when women were really second class citizens, and
children were property... even those of us in this country
that are poor are better off than in a so called "third
world country" where poverty takes on a whole new meaning.
Yep, just my two cents again.
__________________________________________________________
From NoahNelse (Jan20 19:33):
Lacey,
Communism failed, as I have already said, because it was
forced. You can not give up the ideal, though, simply
because it has yet to be achieved. You should always strive
for perfection, even though we are so far from it, and I
believe the socialist ideal of a sharing society is the
perfect economic system.
Capitalism is a failure. You are judging capitalism based
on how it has benefited you with no regard to its faults. I
see any economic system which allows people to starve to
death, regardless of what the reason may be, as a failure.
No matter how wealthy someone such as yourself may get,
capitalism has not helped humanity in the least.
I am truly sorry to see how much joy you seem to take in the
wealth you have acquired. It is almost as if you feel no
compassion for your fellow humans who continue to starve.
Perhaps you are a prime example of the shortcomings of
capitalism.
In the end, the economic system is not important. It is
what you do that matters. Money is merely an obstacle to
good. There is no amount of money you will be satisfied
with, but in poverty is real freedom. Without money, there
are no desires to restrain you. The wealthy are the true
opressed.
__________________________________________________________
From NoahNelse (Jan20 19:39):
I haven't seen Arcane for a while...if anyone knows what
happened to him or his server, please tell me.
__________________________________________________________
From kk (Jan20 19:52):
Communism ideology may be attractive but in reality, it's a
slow evolving economic system that very much brandishes
every human being from their individuality. Capitalism is
true individualism, without out it, we would not be as far
as we are today. It's more than about economy, it's about
freedom. I would rather live in poverty and be free to serve
myself or those whom i choose than to be part of a human
"hive".
__________________________________________________________
From NoahNelse (Jan20 19:58):
I would rather live in poverty than in great wealth as well,
but I do not see working to benefit fellow humans as a
negative thing. You use the word "hive" with a negative
conotation, yet in a hive, don't all the bees prosper?
Whether you choose to accept it or not, the future of others
is yours as well. If you choose not to help others, you
will be hurt by that decision. If you choose to help
others, you will benefit.
If you choose to give up on ideology, reality will simply
become intolerable. It is hoping for more than seems
possible that has driven humanity forward, and will continue
to do so.
Working towards good is always good, whether or not you can
achieve that good. I see the sharing of all resources with
all of humanity as a good thing.
__________________________________________________________
From Zappa (Jan20 20:26):
Great site - great ethics. Kind of place I'd like to upload
all those hard-won apps I think everyone should have :-)
__________________________________________________________
From I Love DMB (Jan20 22:28):
i have a completely free server, i love your idea i upped a
text
__________________________________________________________
From Evaluation Abuser (Jan21 01:36):
Here is my opinion:
Here is how BIG software companies make LOTS OF money:
They LICENSE their software to be packaged with new
computers when they are bought. Apple makes a SH*TLOAD of
money by LICENSING their operating system to companies that
make mac clones.
Claris makes a SH*TLOAD of money LICENSING ClarisWorks on
all those macs that got sold to schools. And Microsoft
makes a F*CKLOAD of money LICENSING Windoze 95 to countless
companies that make computers.
I mean, lets face it. How many people do you know BOUGHT
Windoze 95 at a store? Nawwww....It came INSTALLED on the
computer.
How many people have uploaded those damn games like Descent
that come for free with their computer to warez sites?
Nobody makes any money selling software at the store!
Companies make money LICENSING software to companies who
make HARDWARE.
__________________________________________________________
From NoahNelse (Jan21 16:18):
i knwo that his message falls on temporarily deaf ears, but
i am interested in joining the real free community. i run a
completely free 68k software server, which fits right in
with the idea of providing technology to bridge the gap..
thanks alot ***@***.***
I got this message from "I Love DMB," but I prefer not to
use email, so if this individual would please choose a time,
I'd be happy to talk to them here or at another server.
Thanks.
__________________________________________________________
From Lacey (Jan22 14:16):
Noah, I have no idea how old you are, I make no assumptions.
But let me tell you a little about myself. I am 27, newly
divorced, female, no kids, two dogs. I never completed
college, couldn't hack it. I am by no means rich. I
believe I've stated that before. I do work in tech support,
and contrary to popular belief, it's not the path to riches,
at least, not where I am at. I am working on changing that.
I am telling you all this so you know I'm not some 14 year
old kid who doesn't know a thing about which s/he speaks.
(Sorry to all the 14 year olds, but you just haven't lived
long enough to KNOW) All philosophical arguments aside, here
is my reality. I make 9.00 an hour, about 1100 a month. 430
of that goes to rent, and I have a low rent. That leaves me
670 (approx.) a month. Well, I have more than 450 that goes
to bills, past stupidities, my investments, etc. That leaves
me around 150 for food, taking care of my dogs, going out,
etc. etc. Anyway, it gets spent, and it gets spent fast.
I never feel like I have enough money to take care of myself
much less the rest of the world. I never wish I were
wealthy, I would hate the responsibility. My investments
are 5% of my gross pay, about 60-80 a month, and 25 a month
into a mutual fund. No getting wealthy there. I just
wanted to spell out my situation so that you can't do this
high horse thing with me again acting like I have so much
money, so much wealth. I do not have it. When I pointed
out that I was investing, I meant, look at what even a
"poor" (monetarily speaking) person can do to improve their
situation. I consider myself to be poor. It's a major
concern with me, and I have been looking for another job
since November. I mean really, I have to take care of me
before I can take care of anyone else, which is why I don't
have any kids, and why I live alone, except for two dogs.
And I don't consider it my job to save the world anyway.
I'm just trying to make myself a better person, and I try to
contribute in ways that I am good at, like being generous
with people I do know and care about, being loving to
everyone I meet, no matter how much they tick me off or
upset me, by being open and honest and real, by being a
friend to all I meet, by forgiving quickly and not holding
grudges. If everyone did just that, those little tiny
things, this world would improve by leaps and bounds, and
the economy would have nothing to do with it.
__________________________________________________________
From NoahNelse (Jan22 15:42):
Lacey,
I assume from what you wrote that when I tell you my age I
will lose most of my credibility in your eyes, but I think I
am overly mature for my age, and I if my words and actions
do not state this, then certainly withholding my age will
not.
I am 17. I live with my mother, a teacher, also newly
divorced, and not incredibly wealthy. Other than shelter, I
pretty much sustain myself. I buy most of my own food and
whatever else I would want to own. I realize you will see m
as a hypocrite, as I own more than I need to survive, but
after I have completed my education (after college), I do
intend to go into voluntary poverty. Until then, I'm afraid
I would cause my mother undo stress by taking this step.
I would hope you have not found me overly critical of your
posistion. I would certainly not ask anyone to give so much
that it made it difficult for them to live, but I witness
the excess that is American capitalist society constantly
and it sickens me. We should not be allowed to live in such
luxury here, ignoring those who are fighting to survive. I
would not include you, based on what you have told me, in
the group of those in luxury nor those struggling to
survive. You seem to have roughly, and possibly a small
amount more than, the necessities.
I regret if I seem to be on a "high horse." I am imperfect,
as I will readily admit. But I am working to improve
society as well as myself, and those who would give up on
socialist ideals because of either their own greed or false
impressions of what exactly the ideal is are generally
apathetic towards the state of their fellow human.
I agree with you completely that change must start with the
individual. I would hope to reach as many individuals as
possible. I would certainly not advocate a socialist
economic system in any country unless an overwhelming
majority of the citizens were for it. But I maintain that
in any compassionate and educated society, socialism would
be the system of choice.
__________________________________________________________
From NoahNelse (Jan22 15:48):
One more thing. I considerate everyone's job to save the
world. I believe we are all increasingly involved in the
events of the world, and so if we should not choose to save
the world out of compassion for others, we should at least
do so out of concern for our own futures.
There may very well be another art student in Germany whom
you care very little about now. But when he is leading an
army threatening to take over the world you live in, you
will wish you had begun saving it earlier.
I would not say that everyone should do monumental deads,
though. Every positive action you take is a step to save
the world. I would only ask that you should take more of
these.
__________________________________________________________
From Chilly (Jan22 19:25):
so basically you are sayign warez is not ethically right ??
well neither are mp3's which are on this server , i myslef
am a local musician,and when you distribute these, you are
takign away are hard earned money, we work our asses off for
months even years to produce these songs,and then tour, so
if your goign to be ethical, be 100% ethical.
Thank you
__________________________________________________________
From NoahNelse (Jan22 19:31):
I think this is a good example of an uninformed statement.
As for MP3s and other works of art, I would hope that the
artist would be creating their work for reasons of
expression rather than profit. If not, I should hope they
would choose another vocation. I know that for myself, I
have bought a few CDs after hearing songs on MP3 first, so
in this function, as well as that of distributing amature
music, I would think that MP3s would have a positive effect
on the music industry as a whole.
From B art (Jan24 06:11):
And to you NoahNelse, being 17 is cool and your fresh-eyed
view is as valid as my 42yr old one , However when you have
your own children , want to change the world through
politics and look back at how all your old school chums are
doing, well, then take it from me a little bread ain’t no
crime. I used to pat myself on the back for the exact same
ideals, no-one else did or does though!!
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