From: [email protected] (Len Bucuvalas)
Subject: Interview with Lazar on Area 51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 21 Dec 92 23:23:01 GMT
References: <[email protected]> <[email protected]>
The following are some of the first messages that appeared on the Paranet
UFO network regarding Robert Lazar.
----Begin Included Text ---------------------------------------------
Message #2505 "PN: UFO"
Date: 11-Nov-89 03:25
From: Michael Corbin
Subj: For Immediate Release
Next Reply is Message #2506
November 10, 1989
ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO)--This evening saw
perhaps an unprecedented event in UFOlogy. KLAS-TV in Las Vegas,
Nevada has been airing a UFO special during the evening news
which began on Monday dealing with the UFO mystery and cover-up.
The series, which has been covered by ParaNet, began its coverage
with a history of UFOs beginning in the late 1940s and moving
forward through the numerous sighting reports to the cattle
mutilations, which was aired last evening. As promised at the
close of last evening's show, George Knapp, a news anchorman for
Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a scientific person would be
featured on tonight's program who has claimed to work at Area 51,
the government's super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in Nevada.
Indeed, quite a story was told by Robert Lazar, a physicist who
claimed that he had worked on a project at Area 51 involving
flying disks provided by alien intelligences.
Over the last year, ParaNet has carried stories relating to
possible involvement with the government in projects of this
nature at the Nevada test site. Up to now, the stories have been
of a very speculative nature. Although the material presented by
Robert Lazar remains unconfirmed, enough information has been
disclosed that ParaNet's large investigative staff in Nevada has
started an intensive investigation into this release. It is
interesting to note that Robert Lazar is an associate of John
Lear and has been providing this information to Lear over the
last few months. Lear has appeared on Channel 8 on numerous
occasions together will Bill Cooper discussing Lear's famous 'ET
Hypothesis.' According to Lear, Lazar was instrumental in
providing Lear with locations overlooking the test site which
would provide a good view of the objects as they flew into the
night sky. Lear attempted to shoot video of an object as it
maneuvered through the night sky during last summer, however
nothing was captured on the tape of a substantive nature. Lear
also relates that his group was harassed by a Lincoln County
sheriff following his attempts to take the pictures.
Below is a transcript of the program that aired this
evening. All paragraphs out of quotes are the narrator of the
segment. We were as accurate as possible on the transcription,
however there are a couple of places where comments were edited
out due to inability to understand what was being said.
Further reports will be provided as information becomes
We've been working on the story for some time....UFO
researchers claim that there is a secret government within our
government. Now this may be hard to believe coming from the UFO
perspective, but we have learned that Watergate and the Iran
Contra scandal that factions within our government can and do
pursue their own hidden agendas outside of the law; outside the
control of the Congress or the knowledge of the American people.
This is exactly the type of operation that we hear about tonight.
It's a chilling scenario with worldwide implications that may
have its roots right here [Las Vegas, Nevada].
Area 51, that mysterious corner of the Nevada Test Site, is
no longer considered a secret. The fact that secretive things
go on here isn't evident; even to the Soviets who make daily spy
flights over the facility to take a peek at what's going on.
These photos, never before shown in public, are about as close as
anyone will ever come to seeing what the place looks like again.
The dry bed at Groom Lake, the corrugated buildings, a three-mile
long runway and some highly sophisticated radar and detection
equipment. Its been known by many names over the years --
Dreamland; The Ranch; The Skunk Works. If ever there was a place
to test the secret new technology, this is it. And that's
exactly what has been done here for decades.
Area 51 is where Francis Gary Powers and the other U-2
pilots were trained in the 50s. And, where the U-2 itself was
developed. The SR-71 spy plane that spotted Soviet missiles in
Cuba in the early 60s were also developed at 51. 51 is where
Stealth technology was nurtured, where Star Wars devices are
still tested, and where all manner of CIA [unknown] business has
been plotted and refined. It's the perfect place for secret
things, but of course, that's no secret. 51 is ringed by the
forbidden vastness of the Nevada test site; by the looming Groom
Mountain and by sparsely populated desert expanses. But the
people that do live out here have no love lost for the military,
but they're conservative, patriotic and they mind their own
Interviewer questioning a nearby resident of Area 51: "Ever see
something that you can't explain?"
Resident: "Sure, lots of times."
Interviewer: "Care to elaborate?"
Resident: "No." (Laughter).
On any given night at the Rachel Bar and Grill, you might
find three or four people who work at Area 51. They are among
the flowing Budweiser and the cowboy hats. You might find them,
but they are not going to talk to you. Not about the things that
they have seen over the mountain. A steady trickle of curiosity-
seekers flows through here; strangers, drawn by strange stories
of lights in the night sky. Their questions also go unanswered.
No one who has worked at Dreamland has ever publicly acknowledged
what so many people have suspected for years: That alien
technology is being tested in the Nevada desert.
The speculation first surfaced in documents obtained by UFO
researchers. Documents about something called Project Aquarius.
The document allegedly prepared for an organization called MJ-12,
states that a program to fly recovered alien spacecraft was
established in 1972 and is continuing in Nevada. The National
Security Agency has confirmed it does have a Project Aquarius but
denies that it has anything to do with flying saucers. NSA will
not say what Project Aquarius is.
Speculation was heightened in 1984, when the Air Force
seized nearly 90,000 acres around Groom Lake. The action was, by
most accounts, illegal. During Congressional hearings about the
land grab, Congressman John Siberling grilled the military about
the legal authority used in the action and was told the authority
was at a much, much higher level than the Air Force.
Siberling asked what authority is higher than the laws of the
United States? The Air Force official said he could respond, but
only in a closed briefing. In 1987, when the Air Force sought to
renew its stranglehold on the Groom range, news articles once
again mentioned the talk about alien spacecraft and subsequent
articles in national magazines quoted un-named sources about
things of alien origin flying in Nevada. Things that would make
film-maker George Lucas drool. Despite the speculation, no one
who knew Area 51 from the inside ever talked publicly about the
Bob Lazar: "Well, there's several uh, actually nine uh flying
saucers, flying disks that are out there of extraterrestrial
origin." The live interview with the shadowy "Dennis" drew
international attention. Portions were broadcast by radio in six
European countries, and in a nationally televised TV special in
Despite numerous inquiries and "feelers," "Dennis" has
remained anonymous until now. His real name is Robert Lazar. A
young scientist with eclectic interests. The choice of "Dennis"
was an inside joke -- he says that's the name of his superior at
Groom Lake. It wasn't a joke to Dennis.
Lazar: "He called right after and said, 'Do you have any idea
what we're going to do to you now?' and I said no, and he hung up
Lazar's story is by any standard, fantastic. He says he's
telling it in order to protect himself. He said he was hired to
work in area called S-4 which is a few miles south of Groom Lake.
At S-4, he says, are flying saucers, anti-matter reactors and
other working examples of technology that is seemingly beyond
Lazar: "Right. This stuff came from somewhere else. I know it
is hard to believe, but it is there and I saw it. I know what
the current state-of-the-art is in physics and it it can't be
Checking out Lazar's credentials proved to be a difficult
task. He says he holds degrees in physics and electronics, but
the schools that we contacted say they've never heard of him. He
says he also worked as a physicist at Los Alamos National
Labs where he worked with one of the world's largest particle
beam accelerators, a half-mile long 'behemoth' capable of
generating seven-hundred million volts. Los Alamos officials
told us they have no record of Robert Lazar ever working there.
They were either mistaken or were lying. A 1982 phone book from
the Lab lists Lazar right there among the other scientists and
technicians. A 1982 news clipping from the Los Alamos newspaper
profiled Lazar and his interest in jet cars. It, too, mentioned
his employment at the Lab as a physicist. We called Los Alamos
again, and an exasperated official told us he still had no
records on Lazar. EG&G, which is where Lazar says he was
interviewed for the job at S-4, also has no record. It's as if
someone has made him disappear.
Lazar: "Well, they're trying to make me look non-existent to the
places that I called...."
Interviewer: "Explain. Called where?"
Lazar: "Well, the schools that I went to; the hospital that I
was born at; past jobs, and nothing comes up with my name on it."
He smiles, but out of futility, knowing the whole thing must
sound ridiculous. According to Lazar, his employer was the
United States Navy. He says he and other government employees
would gather near EG&G, fly to Groom Lake, then a very few people
would get into a bus with blacked out or no windows and drive to
Interviewer: "You get off the bus, what do you see?"
Lazar: "A very interesting building. Its got a slope of
probably about 30 degrees which are hangar doors, and it has
textured paint on it, but it looks like sand. It's made to look
like the side of the mountain that it is in, whether it's to
disguise it from satellite photographs or what...."
He says he was never told exactly what he would be working
on, but figured it had something to do with advanced propulsion.
On his first day he was told to read a series of briefings, and
immediately realized how advanced the propulsion really was.
Lazar: "The power source is an anti-matter reactor. They run
gravity amplifiers. There is actually two parts to the drive
mechanism. It's a bizarre technology. There is no physical
hookups between any of the systems in there. They use gravity as
a wave using wave guides that look like microwaves."
It took awhile, Lazar says, before he actually saw one of
the flying disks, however there were hints everywhere.
Lazar: "Right. They had a poster, and it looked like a
commercial poster, like it was lithographed, like you could buy
it at K-Mart or someplace, but they were all over the place and
it had the disk that I coined the term 'the floor model' which
lifted off the ground about 3 feet out at the area, in the Dry
Lakes area, and the caption on it said 'They're here.' These
posters were all over the place."
Later, he got to see the real thing.
Lazar: "When I was led in, it was the first time that I saw the
'floor model' in the hangar sitting down, and I was told they
could have walked me in the front door but they purposely wanted
to walk me by it. I was told not to say anything and to keep my
eyes forward and walk past the disk to the office area. And I
did. And as we went by it, I just kinda stuck my hands on it,
just to run it alongside the thing and uh ....After that I got to
see actually lift off the ground and operate."
Interviewer: "You actually got to see more than one?"
Lazar: "Yeah. The hangars are all connected together. There
are large bay doors between each one. There were nine total that
I saw, each one being different. Like they had the assortment
Security at S-4 was oppressive Lazar said, and his superiors
used fear and intimidation almost as a brainwashing tool.
Lazar: "They did everything but physically hurt me."
Interviewer: "They put a gun to your head?"
Interviewer: "You mean they actually put a gun to your head?"
Lazar: "They did that even in the original security briefing.
Guards there with M-16s. Guys there slamming their fingers into
my chest, screaming into my ear, they were pointing weapons at
me. Like I said, it's not a good place to work."
That fear factor would surface later. Lazar agreed to
undergo a polygraph exam as part of this report. Polygrapher Ron
Clay asked about the technology that Lazar had seen.
Polygrapher: "Did you knowingly lie when you had actually seen
anti-gravity propulsion in operation?"
The results of this exam were inconclusive. Lazar appeared
to be truthful on one test; deceitful on a second. Clay
recommended that a second examiner be brought in. Polygrapher
Terry Tabernetti (sp?) runs a corporate security operation and is
a former Los Angeles police officer. He put Lazar through four
tests and concluded there were no attempts to deceive.
Tabernetti sent his test results to a third polygrapher who
agreed the results appeared truthful. The charts were then sent
to a fourth examiner who did not agree suggesting that Lazar
might be relating information he'd learned from someone else.
The polygraphers concurred and decided they would not issue a
final statement on truthfulness until more specific testing can
be conducted. And that's where it stands.
Tabernetti believes the difficulty in determining Lazar's
truthfulness stems from the fear that was drilled into him.
Lazar: "Well, I am telling the truth. I've tried to prove that.
What's going on up there could be the most important event in
history. You're talking about contact, physical contact and
proof from another planet, another system, another intelligence.
Thats got to be the biggest event in history, period. And, it's
real and it's there. And I had an extremely small part in it.
I'm convinced that what I saw is absolute proof of that. There
is no way that we could have created those disks. There is no
way we could have made the disks, the power supplies, anything
that goes with it."
Lazar says he has no intention of going on any UFO lecture
circuit. He is not looking to do any additional interviews. In
fact, he was not too crazy about doing this one. He did it after
certain unfavorable things started happening in his life, and he
did it because he feels that whoever is running the show up at S-
4 is perpetrating a fraud on the American people and the
Message #3969 "PN: UFO"
Date: 12-Nov-89 01:48
From: Michael Corbin
Subj: Correction to the Area 51 transcript
SUBJECT: ADDENDUM/CORRECTIONS RE 11/10/89 KLAS-TV/NEVADA TEST
SITE/AREA 51 UFO REPORT
My introduction to the partial transcript of the program contains
certain presumptions -- rather than evidence -- which may be misleading.
These presumptions were based on prior SEPARATE KLAS-TV telecasts with Lear
and with a "Dennis" -- now revealed as Robert Lazar.
> It is interesting to note that Robert Lazar is an associate of
> John Lear and has been providing this information to Lear over
> the last few months.
The extent to which Lazar has interfaced with Lear is unknown. In fact,
Lear appears to have had a number of Nevada Test Site sources, any one of
whom could have provided him with the Area 51 information.
> According to Lear, Lazar was instrumental in providing Lear
> with locations overlooking the test site which would provide
> a good view of the objects as they flew into the night sky.
In fact, it is unknown who -- if anyone -- steered Lear to the specific
locations overlooking the Nevada Test Site. Lear has made no statement
regarding Lazar in this regard.
> As promised at the close of last evening's show, George Knapp,
> a news anchorman for Channel 8 in Vegas, stated that a
> scientific person would be featured on tonight's program
> who has claimed to work at Area 51, the government's
> super-secret test range at Nellis AFB in Nevada.
Rather than being situated at Nellis Air Force Base in Las Vegas, Area 51
lies in the northeast corner of the U.S. Government's Nevada Test Site at
Mercury, Nevada, which is 65 miles north of Nellis Air Force Base.
Message #4002 "PN: UFO"
Date: 14-Nov-89 03:22
From: Robert Klinn
Subj: Area 51: The Nevada Test Site's Supersecret UFO Base?
Next Reply is Message #4023
With two top local TV stations here in Las Vegas -- KLAS-TV and KTNV-TV --
carrying deadly serious news reports this week of real alien UFOs POSSIBLY
being flown out of the supersecret Area 51, that portion of the U.S.
Government's Nevada Test Site which the Air Force refuses to acknowledge as
even existing, the situation here appears like The War of the Worlds.
At KTNV-TV, photographer Clay Downey and reporter Glen Meek are tracking
down the nature of the on-going projects at Area 51. Off-air, Meek says he
has discovered that Area 51 is comprised of four sections. Of those, he has
learned the type of activity occurring at two of them. He has been having
much difficulty learning the type of activity occurring at the other two.
KTNV will broadcast reports this week at 5:30 p.m. Wed., Thurs, & Fri.
In a videotape presented by KLAS-TV newsman George Knapp, a UFO performs
abrupt manuevers over what may be the "S-4" portion of Area 51 at the Test
Site. Knapp's final report will be broadcast tonight, Tuesday at
approximately 6:15 p.m.
Knapp's star witness is scientist Robert Lazar, who drew a picture of the
craft he saw operating at the base.
Lazar emphatically claims these are alien craft -- not human-made devices.
Lazar says at least one UFO appeared to have been ruptured by a projectile.
War of the Worlds?
Robert B. Klinn
--- QuickBBS v2.04
* Origin: -=<ParaNet Alpha(sm)>=- Denver, CO (303)232-6115 (1:104/422)
Message #4024 "PN: UFO"
Date: 15-Nov-89 01:55
From: Michael Corbin
Subj: Installment on Dreamland continued.
November 13, 1989
ParaNet Information Service (Denver, CO) -- In our
continuing coverage of the remarkable revelations coming out of
Las Vegas, Nevada, here is the next installment to the program
aired on November 13, 1989 by television station KLAS-TV and
News Anchor persons:
A former government scientist has alleged that the U.S.
military is flying recovered UFOs at a secret base in the Nevada
desert. The allegations about the secret facility near the Groom
Mountains first surfaced on Eyewitness News on last Friday
[November 10, 1989].
Scientist Bob Lazar says that there are at least nine of the
flying saucers being tested and that they were not built on
Earth. George Knapp has more on the continuation of our series
Lazar: "Yeah. It was obvious it came from somewhere else, uh,
other than Earth."
Scientist Bob Lazar was convinced that the technology he saw
being tested at a secret base in the Nevada desert is of alien
origin, and for Lazar the proof is, at least, partially in the
furniture. One of the nine flying disks he says he saw at the
base, which was designated S-4, looks exactly like this UFO
photographed in Europe [Photo of UFO shown]. Lazar called it
the "sport model."
Lazar: "I gave everything names -- the top hat one and you know
the jello mold and, uh, the sport model operated without any
hitches at all. I mean, it looked new. If I knew what a new
flying saucer looked like. One of them looked like it was hit
with some sort of a projectile. It had a large hole in the
bottom and a large hole in the top with the metal bent out like
some sort of, you know, large caliber 4 or 5 inch had gone
Even before he saw the sport model operate, Lazar says, he
suspected that the ship came from somewhere else. The
realization slapped him in the face the first time he glimpsed
the inside of the disk.
Lazar: "I got to look inside and it had really small chairs. I
think that was the first confirmation I had. That was just a
shocking thing because everytime before that I was able to label
it. This is just a little advance that a group of scientists had
formed and, you know, they're keeping it secret, and yeah, we
could have built a big disk like that, and yeah, that's no
problem, and, you know, we could have adapted the use(?) to make
it fly, but why does it have little furniture inside? [garbled].
And things began to click together just all too fast."
A few of the disks had been completely dismantled to find
out how they worked, Lazar says, but others were fully
operational. A Japanese TV network created this animated version
of Lazar's story after his first interview with us aired in May
[showing video]. Lazar says the dramatization is similar to a
test flight he witnessed.
Lazar: "The bottom of it glowed blue and began to hiss like any,
like high voltage does on a round sphere. It's my impression
that the reason that they're round and have no sharp edges is to
contain the high voltage like, uh, if you've seen a high voltage
system's insulators -- things are round or else you get a corona
discharge. In either case, it began to hiss as in high voltage
and it lifted off the ground quietly except for that little hiss
in the background, and that stopped as soon as it reached about
20 or 30 feet."
Lazar says the test of the sport model was a short one --
that it made only a few moves before setting back down. He
didn't see who was actually flying the craft, but was very
Lazar: "Well, there's no action reaction system to it. There's
no, like in a jet engine, exhaust gas being thrown out -- no
propeller, no noise. It's just, for all intents and purposes,
To Lazar's knowledge, the flying disks are not being used,
for say, any flights to Jupiter. He said excessive caution and
intense secrecy contributed to the plodding pace of the program
and were a main source of his disenchantment.
Lazar: "It's just unfair, outright, not to put it in the hands
of the overall scientific community. There are people much more
capable of dealing with this information, and by this time would
have gotten a lot further along than this small select group of
people working out in the middle of the desert. They don't even
have the facilities, really, to completely analyze what they're
Gene Huff: "Well he was being quiet. If he kept me abreast of
anything, he kept me abreast of the security checks -- they'd
randomly drop by his house. They'd threaten his life; they'd
threaten his wife's life. They had done all that so we really
didn't converse, I mean, he really was adhering to the program."
Gene Huff is a Las Vegas real estate appraiser. A regular
guy who just happens to have a friend in the flying saucer
business. He learned about Lazar's S-4 experiences only after a
long period. Lazar is anxious for people to know that he didn't
just run right out and spill the secrets of the universe, and
that some things are properly kept confidential.
Lazar: "I did not believe that this should be a security matter.
Some of it, sure. But, just the concept that there's definite
proof, and uh, we even have articles from another world, another
system, you just can't not tell everyone. A lot of people don't
believe that. But, I do."
When he reached what he felt was his bursting point, he took
Huff and a few others to the edge of the Groom Mountains to see
the flights for themselves. A total of five witnesses on two
consecutive weeks managed to dodge security patrols long enough
to see the strange glowing object lift above the mountain.
Huff(?): "Uh, it came up above the same mountain. It moved
around. It did a step move -- it actually went up in the air
like this [showing details with hands] and it hovered then
dropped way down then it just floated around and cruised around.
It starts coming up the mountain range...."
This home video tape was recorded during one of the trips to
the Groom Mountains [showing video tape. A lot of
talking....Object in sight....Mention of brightness of the
Admittedly, the tape proves very little by itself because,
with the distance and darkness, there are no reference points
other than the alleged flying disk, but Lazar's information about
the time and location of the test flight proves correct -- not
once but twice. That, according to our off-camera interviews
with each of the other witnesses. Gene Huff describes his second
Huff: "Through the telescope we could see an elliptical-shaped
light. You can only get so close even with a telescope to a
secure facility. Anyway, it came up by us very rapidly. It
glowed and glows brighter like a star and we almost got the
feeling that it was going to explode, it glowed so brightly. We
backed up behind the car then it went down and glowed back up a
little bit and then very softly glided back over, back where the
mountains where it came up, hovered for awhile, and then that's
that....Just like you see in the movies."
Bob Lazar isn't the only person to claim "inside knowledge"
of the flying disks at the test site -- he is just the only
person to say so publicly. We have communicated with several
people who say they know of the saucer program. A technician in
a highly sensitive position told us it is "common knowledge among
those with high security clearances that recovered alien disks
are stored at the Nevada test site." A Las Vegas professional,
who once served in the military and was stationed at the test
site, said he saw a flying disk land outside the boundaries of
Area 51 -- that it was quickly surrounded by security personnel
and that he was taken away and debriefed for several hours. A
man who once worked at Groom Lake as a technician, at our
request, wrote this letter explaining how he inadvertently walked
into the wrong hangar and saw what appeared to be a large
metallic disk under a tarp. It was being examined by men in lab
coats. And, an airman who worked at Nellis at a radar
installation says he and his fellow servicemen watched over a
period of five nights, unusual objects flying over the Groom
Mountains. He says the radar images indicates the objects zoomed
into range at speeds of 7,000 miles per hour and then would stop
on a dime, and that nothing we have is capable of doing that.
The airman says that when word of his sighting got out, he was
ordered to turn off his radar sensors for that area and told to
keep quiet about the matter because it did not happen.
None of this means that the military is actually flying
alien spacecraft in the Nevada desert. It could all perhaps be
explained as some other secret program. Lazar insists that's not
We put the matter to the U.S. Navy, which according to
Lazar, is running the saucer show. Four different naval offices
were contacted. All denied having any information in their
files. The Naval Research Lab said it conducted a thorough
search but found "zip." Naval Intelligence said much the same
thing, adding, it is not required to create a file where one
doesn't exist. A side note: We also requested files on a UFO
sighting over Tremonton, Utah in 1952. The Navy spent more than
a thousand hours studying film of that sighting -- a fact that's
been noted in several publications -- but, for purposes of our
request, the Navy couldn't find those files either.
Lazar: "The group that runs this project, whether it really is
the Navy or they just say that, apparently these people have
executive power -- they don't report to anyone."
Tomorrow, more troubling allegations of the military
potential of alien technology.
This file is available on ParaNet as Area51-2.ufo.
End of file
-* Don Allen *- InterNet: [email protected] // Amiga..for the best of us.
USnail: 1818G Landing Dr, Sanford Fl 32771 \X/ Why use anything else? :-)
UUCP: ..uunet!tarpit!bilver!vicstoy!dona 0110 0110 0110 Just say NO!
Illuminati < MJ-12|Greys|TLC|CFR|FED|Bilderbergs > UN = "New World Order"
Article 5373 of alt.conspiracy:
From: [email protected] (Don Allen)
Subject: INFO: Chuck Harder interview of George Knapp -LAZAR
Keywords: Robert Lazar -UFO - Area51
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 4 Jul 91 02:09:19 GMT
Organization: W. J. Vermillion - Winter Park, FL
Xref: lassie alt.conspiracy:5373
This information is presented for your persusal and is a continuation
of my policy of informing the public what is currently available. The
content of this information does NOT necessarily reflect the personal
views of the poster,nor should the views,opinions,statements or claims
represented in the following be accepted by anyone reading these texts
at *face* value. If this interests you, please endeavor to research it
yourself and investigate it to *your* satisfaction, and as such I will
leave it in your hands to either prove it or de-bunk it :-)
As I do not have a great amount of time available to pursue follow-ups
exclusively, comments to me should be directed to [email protected]
The following file(s) appeared on the Paranet UFO network in the late
1989 to 1990 time period. The following files are on Robert Lazar and
are copyrighted by Paranet to insure their integrity. I have not
gotten express permission to re-publish them here; however it's my
*intent* to make them available for their informational content only.
This is the Chuck Harder radio interview "For The People" of
George Knapp, regarding Robert Lazar.
DATE OF UPLOAD: December 23, 1989
ORIGIN OF UPLOAD: ParaNet Information Service
CONTRIBUTED BY: Chuck Harder/Special Correspondent to ParaNet
(C) Copyright 1989 ParaNet Information Service
All Rights Reserved unless copyrighted by Author.
INTERVIEW WITH GEORGE KNAPP OF KLAS-TV (LAS VEGAS, NEVADA) ON
NOVEMBER 17, 1989. INTERVIEWED BY CHUCK HARDER, HOST AND
MODERATOR OF 'FOR THE PEOPLE' OF THE SUN RADIO NETWORK.
My guest has (now) called in and I'm going to run down who he is
and where he's from for a number of reasons, some of them for his
own protection. George, are you there...
Please tell us, you are George Knapp, right...
George, what do you do for a living?
I'm a journalist with KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, the CBS affiliate
So you are a TV newsman...
And you work for Channel 8, KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, Nevada...
I understand that you have come upon some very interesting
information and you've done some special reports, could you tell
us about it...?
Well we just finished a nine-part series -- what may be the
longest series that's ever been done on this subject dealing with
Our research actually started about two and a half years ago, a
fellow named John Lear, the son of the guy who invented the Lear
Jet brought some of this information to our attention. In May of
this year, Mr. Lear introduced us to a fellow who claims to have
worked at a secret base designated S-4...on a top-secret Nevada
test site...the fellow said that he worked on flying saucers,
that the technology was not from Earth, and we interviewed him
live in silhouette in May, the response was incredible...we got
response from Japan, parts of that interview aired on radio in
Europe, and six different European countries...so we decided with
this much interest we might want to take a look at the subject in
We started doing that and the first thing we found out is that
really UFOs have not been given a fair shake by science, by
government, by religion and especially by journalism. Millions
of people have seen UFOs, millions more believe...I think the
latest Gallup poll shows about 70 percent of college-educated
Americans believe that there's something to it, but because of
the tabloid aspects...'The Girl Who Gives Birth to 52 UFO Babies'
-- kind of things in the National Enquirer, people have shied
away from it...Serious people have shied away. Scientists,
although they might be interested in searching the universe for
radio signals really don't want to look in their own back yard --
they can't get grants...people would laugh at them. Journalism -
- the coverage is generally condescending and quirky, especially
by the networks, as in the coverage of this UFO that supposedly
landed in the USSR, people making fun of it...so, we figured out
that millions of people want to know as Roy Neary, the guy in the
'Close Encounters' movie said, 'What's going on?' So we started
investigating it. The focal point of the story being this fellow
who said he worked at S-4. We broke his identity last Friday.
His name is Bob Lazar, he is a former scientist who worked at Los
Alamos National Labs, he is a physicist...we did a lot of
checking on him and found interestingly enough that his life was
disappearing around him. In other words we called Los Alamos
Labs and they said they never heard of him. We called MIT where
he says he went to school and they had never heard of him. We
called for his Birth records and they had disappeared...as if
someone was trying to make him a non-person. We did however
confirm some of the information that he had given us...we found
newspaper articles from Los Alamos indicating that he had indeed
worked there...we found an old telephone book from the lab with
his name in it, which gave him a certain amount of credibility in
our eyes. The story he tells is an incredible one. He was hired
to work at this area called S-4 on the test site, he was flown up
to a place called Groom Lake -- taken by bus with no windows to
S-4...the base is built almost to look like its part of the
desert with sand covered hanger doors, he goes inside and he
starts reading these briefing papers dealing with UFOs! Pictures
of UFOs on the walls, pictures of aliens, autopsy reports on
alien bodies...things of this nature -- he's pretty amazed. Then
he sees the discs. He says there are nine of the discs up there,
they are powered by an anti-matter reactor which produces its own
gravitational field...technology that does not exist on this
planet, and the interesting thing...he thought for a while that
perhaps it was just an advanced secret scientific project that
our government is pursuing until he looked inside one of the
discs and noticed the small furniture...all the chairs were built
like for children...and then things started coming together for
him. Are you with me Chuck?
Er, I'm not sure how much detail you want me to go in on...
Oh I think you ought to keep going.
Well, this fellow was up there for only a few months. And it was
a rough place for him to work...the security was so hard and he
was being harassed at home, his phones being tapped...plus he's
on to what he thinks are the secrets of the universe...he starts
to tell other people about it, confide with close friends.
He had the date of a couple of tests and on two consecutive
weekends he took people up into the desert outside of the
boundaries of area S-4, and they video taped the saucers...what
looks like a saucer coming over the mountains!
We showed that video as well...
Five different people that we interviewed that had gone up there
confirmed the same story...we also had confirmation of other bits
of his story from other people, a former security guard who
worked up there...who said he had seen the saucers, a former
By the way, excuse me, I have some letters from some people
postmarked from that area, one inside of a base, who tells me
what you're saying is true. Keep going.
Ah, we also found a Nellis Airman who had been on radar duty at
Nellis airbase which is here just south of the area that this
fellow is talking about...he reported numerous times seeing...
George, excuse me...let me do the half hour news break, I want
you to tell your story, I want America to hear it...please stand
>>>>At this point the SUN RADIO NETWORK runs the half hour news
headlines and sports audio package from UPI<<<<
(After news the guest is re-introduced for listeners who may have
just tuned in...)
How many reports did you do, George?
We did nine total in this series.
Ok, now at the time we went to news on the half hour you told me
that a scientist named Bob Lazar...
Ok, came to you and came to the public and apparently was
concerned for his safety because he wanted to tell America or get
news out that - yes, the Federal Government has nine saucers, and
yes they are near...it's near Nellis, is it not?
Cause I have letters from people who are at Nellis. Some of
which don't want to give their name, some of which gave their
name, I have the postmarks. Tell us now if you would, start the
story from the fact that the gentleman has revealed that there
are nine of these things. We're listening and so is America.
Well, we wanted to try to confirm as much of his story as
possible from other sources of course, so we started looking for
other people who might have knowledge of what's going on up
there...as I mentioned, I found a former security guard who said
that he had seen the saucers up there, I found a former
technician who said that he had walked into a room inadvertently
and saw one under a tarp, we found a Nellis airman who had worked
in radar and said that basically he and his fellow airman has
seen these things flying over the Groom Mountains at speeds up to
7,000 miles per hour on radar...these things would stop on a
dime, so the guy knew that this is not your average airplane
that's doing this. We also interviewed the other people who went
with Lazar up on two consecutive weeks, they test them on
Wednesdays for some reason, and videotaped the tests, saw these
things flying over the mountains and confirmed his story as well.
We put these questions to the Navy, who Lazar says he worked for
up there -- we made Freedom of Information Act requests for
information about the various specific programs he mentioned, of
course the Navy denied having any information on the programs.
Of course in those requests we also asked for other information
about UFOs, stuff the Navy has already released and they denied
having that information as well -- so I don't put a lot of faith
in the FOIA requests.
In other words, what you're saying is that your organization
which is KLAS-TV in Las Vegas, plus many other UFO research
groups have uncovered many UFO documents that the government
says, 'Yeah, we got them and yeah it's true'...but then when you
ask them again they say, 'No, we don't have them!'
Exactly...that's exactly correct!
I understand from MUFON and many other groups that there are
somewhere from four to seven thousand documents that prove
that...yes these things exist, copies of the documents are in
private hands, then you go and ask the government and they say,
'Well, er, no we don't remember...'
The government says that they have done these studies that say
that UFOs are no threat to national security, they're either
psychological aberrations, which means that people are nuts when
they see them, that's what they feed the public...but behind the
scenes they are very concerned about the national security
implications of UFOs that land at nuclear missile bases and can't
be caught, things of that nature. So the government from what
I've read is very concerned about the phenomena and doesn't
really understand it. The government on the other hand has
outright lied concerning what information it does have...the CIA
for example says it doesn't collect any information on
UFOs...well that's just patently not true. We have documents
from the CIA, a lot of it is blacked out, which mentions UFO
studies by the CIA, UFO research, CIA-UFO experts, agency
personnel who are monitoring the phenomenon, so they have lied to
us all along. I didn't expect to get any confirmation regarding
what Lazar has to say, but had to give it a try anyway.
Before we went to the half-hour break you said that when he
looked inside one of these discs there were little furniture,
give me some information...
Well he feels that they were bringing him along, giving him a
piece at a time. He would see a saucer one day, the next he
would see the hanger doors open and see all nine of them...after
that he got to see the inside of the thing. He also got to see a
demonstration of it. He was told to stand back and watch
this...and the thing lights up real bright...I guess the power
that's produced is incredible, you need to produce your own
gravitational field and it raised up, he wasn't sure who was
flying it or was it remotely or what. He watched it raise up,
did a couple of maneuvers and sat back down. Part of the reason
he came forward, not to spill the secrets of the universe or the
government, but because the research that's being done up there
is being handled in a clumsy fashion. If they have had these for
as long as forty years, which is what he believes, they haven't
come to far in trying to understand them. Some of the discs he
said he saw up there were being taken apart, kind of a reverse
archaeology process to figure out how they worked. Some of the
research going on up there is aimed at trying to duplicate the
things that these machines can do using earth technologies and
earth materials and he says it just can't be done. The key to
the flying of the things is something he calls 'Element 115'...it
does not exist on our periodic charts, he believes that wherever
it came from its a naturally occurring element, he says we have
500 pounds of this stuff up there, just a little tiny sliver of
it produces incredible amounts of power. Its the '115' that we
will not be able to duplicate so he thinks...one of the reasons
that he came forward is because scientists all over the world are
working, putting their energy into trying to master the secrets
of gravity and the secrets of anti-matter technology and here
we've got it up there and they're not doing a very good job with
it -- this little batch of scientists hidden out in the desert
are trying to figure it out and not doing a very good job...
But this is kind of common with the United States government...I
read a tremendous amount of material...I read a tremendous amount
of material...I read five newspapers a day and I'll find where
one group in one part of the country is working on a project and
I'll get a clipping where another group is working on the same
project, I've contacted them and they don't know of each other!
Yeah, Yeah -- that's exactly right...he said the
compartmentalization up there was very severe as well so that
nobody had the full picture -- I guess so nobody could spill the
beans as he has been trying to do.
Alright, what does he feel the public should know and what does
he feel should be done?
Well, he's not on a campaign, what he really wanted to do was to
save his own life. He started having some problems when it
became obvious to his employers that he was telling someone else
We're talking about Bob Lazar now...
Bob Lazar...his phone being tapped, people visiting him, calling
him up with a single word message -- DEAD -- then they hang up!
He tried to arrange meetings with his former supervisor and the
meetings didn't come off, he says somebody took a shot at him on
the freeway...obviously he realizes that if they really wanted to
kill him, they could. Maybe perhaps they were just trying to
shut him up. He feels that what is going on up there is a crime
against the entire scientific community...not only the American
people because we don't know what's going on and we haven't been
told alien technology exists, but also against the scientific
community. So, what else can I tell ya?
What does he say about the aliens?
He's reluctant to talk about that, apparently he did see some
aliens up there...
Excuse me, are you telling me there were live aliens?
Yeah, he's kind of sketchy on the details of that, and I don't
think I should go much further on that...part of the discussion
until I can talk to him, but he has indications that there are
aliens up there, at least one...
Yeah, it's pretty wild, I know and I didn't include that in our
reports because I couldn't confirm any thing of that nature, I
couldn't find anyone else who had seen them up there so...
What did they look like?
Your classic Grey...the little big-headed almond eyed-grey
skinned being...the same ones in the classic descriptions of the
UFO literature...he's kind of squeamish talking about it as well
because it sounds so crazy...
I don't think it's crazy at all, there was an article, let me
digress for a moment, there was an article yesterday on the front
page of The Wall Street Journal where the FDA that stopped all of
the grapes from Chile last March...apparently somebody laced two
of the grapes with cyanide a couple of hours before the FDA,
stumbled on them and it was an inside job apparently while the
grapes were in the inspection station...and it was not done on
the way, so somebody's lying there -- we're talking of two little
grapes that almost bankrupted the country of Chile! If two
little grapes...and such a story hits the front page of The Wall
Street Journal about the questions about the truthfulness and
what happened with the FDA, what about this...how would this ever
get out if they would cover up a story about TWO LITTLE GRAPES?!
Well, I tell you we asked the question, the obvious question, if
this is true; how can the government keep this a secret all this
time? A story this big -- the government leaks like a sieve on
other things, how could the coverup exist?
Oh, I'll tell you...
To which Lazar responds, this is the easiest...and he asked the
question to his superiors up there, it's the easiest thing in the
world to keep a secret because if it does come out, little bits
and pieces, who's going to believe it?
Exactly...let me, you remember the Condon Report, do you not?
For those who are listening, I got into this investigation
because I kept getting letters from our listeners who said, Chuck
you ought to investigate this...we've investigated many things in
the past such as the GM Diesel coverup, we're working on a pay
phone coverup, we've done things with Ralph Nader...and so on.
So we started buying the books and contacting UFO organizations.
I then found that there was a guy named Phil Klass who was always
there...somehow he as always there and he said that everything
was bunk! And of course, he works for the Aviation Week magazine
which is of course is the mouthpiece for the Military/Industrial
complex and they certainly wouldn't want this technology to be
out! I was also amazed when I saw the stealth bomber (tests)
live on CNN one Saturday and a small plane landed at the same
place, (runway) do you remember that...?
My question is: If the Stealth Bomber was so super-secret, how
could a man and his children land their little tiny plane on the
same runway at a super-secret airforce base? How could he have
pierced the radar and fighter jets and so forth? My feeling was,
probably the Stealth Bomber was obsolete and nobody was watching!
Yeah, I'd have to agree with you, because the security up
there...the only thing that comes out of that place is what they
want out of it.
So what your talking about then, since the Condon Committee, Phil
Klass and all the of the spokespeople who are supposed to know
everything, what your saying is the ridicule factor...if Billy
Bob sees a flying saucer and even has a photo of it and takes it
to the paper, everybody laughs at him!
There are actual documents the government has released (Under
Freedom of Information Act) that show it has an active program
that started back in the fifties...the CIA even used the term
DEBUNKING, there were discussions about using Walt Disney to
produce cartoons that made fun of people who had seen flying
saucers...they were going to bring Arthur Godfrey in as their
spokesperson. Phil Klass as you mentioned, he's explained away
UFO sightings seen by thousands of people as the constellation
ORION, when you can only see ORION from the other side of the
He uses things like Ball Lightning, plasma balls to explain the
sightings where plasma balls only last for a few seconds and the
examples that he is trying to explain occur in cloudless skies
where there is no lightning around. You mention the Condon
report, that's a perfect example of the kinds of things that the
government has done in the past, they commission a study, it's
supposed to be THE STUDY, but the guy they hire to run the thing,
Edward Condon had before he even started, that there was nothing
to UFOs, the government should get out of it, and he also said at
one point that the authors of UFO books should be HORSEWHIPPED!
One of the explanations that came from the Condon Committee
witnessed by several people, they described it as, a natural
phenomena so rare that it has never been seen before or since! I
don't think this kind of a thing is an accident!
Ok, the Soviet Union and Tass gave their report (of a UFO) and
from what I have heard there are different kinds of aliens, some
have been coming here for years and years and it's nothing new...
Why is it in some parts of the world (now) they report other
types of humanoids and other types of vehicles...I happen to have
beautiful photos of some, and as I told you off-the-air, we're
going to be releasing them in our upcoming magazine if someone
doesn't stick a dagger through my heart...
You're talking about the Billy Meier case, if you want to touch
on that, we also did some investigation on that...
Ok, go ahead.
Billy Meier, I've always been intrigued by that, and wanted to
check them out. Its been pretty much written-off by the UFO
community but when we put questions to them about the case they
can't explain exactly why so we traveled to Phoenix and talked to
Lee Elders one of the lead investigators on the Billy Meier case
and started going over the evidence. The photos had been
analyzed by independent experts, the film footage and video had
been analyzed, the metal sample had been confirmed as something
we don't have -- technology of cold fusion was used to produce
this metal, the landing sites, the strange circular patterns in
the grass that are now only gaining attention in Britain and
other countries, all of this stuff had never been pretty much
discounted by the UFO community because Elders and Wendelle
Stevens had gone outside of the UFO community to get
confirmation. The UFO people were kept out of it, the Billy
Meier case I think exemplifies the biggest weakness in UFOLOGY
and that's the jealousy that permeates the field...everybody
wants to be the only one with the real story of UFOs, so they
kind of written this guy off only because he didn't cooperate
We have been able to get some photos from a source who has some
negatives that were just recently located...some from ten feet
away, I used to be in the motion picture business. If they are
models they cost thousands of dollars and I doubt if a simple
Swiss farmer could have done it...
I'd agree with ya, the reason we got interested in Billy Meier,
it goes back to Lazar, was because Bob Lazar says, the saucer
that he saw fly, he dubbed it the sport model, was the same
saucer in the Meier photos, exactly the same.
The new ones or the old ones?
The new one.
Ok, that's the one we've got.
Going back to the things he saw (Lazar) at S-4, he saw the nine
saucers, he said all nine of them were different, like we got the
variety pack, but the one he saw fly was like the one in the
Meier photo. (There are Three types photographed by Billy
That's why we decided to check out the Meier part of the (UFO)
>>>>At this point Chuck Harder tells George Knapp that there is a
break coming up and after the break would he please tell Mr. and
Mrs. America what they should do to get the truth.<<<<
I hope that Mr. and Mrs. America make note of the name George
Knapp and Bob Lazar so that if anything ever happens to them, you
Someone should tell us what's going on...TV and movies have
conditioned us...we won't panic...Jimmy Carter when he ran for
President promised that if he was elected that he vowed to open
all the UFO files and he didn't -- we wrote to him asking why and
he didn't respond. We want the government to come clean. If
that takes a Congressional Investigation...that's something that
should be looked at. If it is launched we have to make sure that
there are no CIA, contractors and the like involved otherwise
people aren't going to believe it. We've seen enough of this
whitewash stuff over the years. If there's nothing to the story,
then open up the files and prove it to us!
OK, have the government let the press into these areas and don't
first clean them out...
The accountability of government has gone to the point where the very
use of the law is the instrument of illegality.
-- Ralph Nader @ Harvard Law School, 1/15/92
Original file: https://cdn.preterhuman.net/texts/underground/unsorted/area_51.txt