MAUG Conference with Andy Hertzfeld

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From: [email protected] (Ephraim Vishniac)
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Subject: MAUG Conference with Andy Hertzfeld
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: Thu, 18-Jul-85 08:33:13 EDT
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Posted: Thu Jul 18 08:33:13 1985
Date-Received: Sat, 20-Jul-85 06:00:10 EDT
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The following is a transcript of an on-line conference with
Andy Hertzfeld.  I found this on MacSaugus (617-231-2810,
two lines, 1200 baud).  All editing was done by the original editor, not me.
(Harry C.)  [tap tap tippy tap tap] IS THIS MIKE ON ?
 ...we're jes minutes away from ..HERTZFELD: A MAN AND HIS SWITCHER !!

(Bill Gibson) tick......tick.......TICK!

(Harry C.) ..Ladies and Gentlemen... a warm MAUG [tm] welcome to..
 ............. ANDY  HERTZFELD...............

<Much clapping and cheering and general mayhem>

(Neil-SYSOP) ORDER! QUIET DOWN! Everyone too much typing can cause 
 people being dropped!  Thanks!  Let's give it just one more minute and 
 we'll start the meeting!!!

(Crowd Murmurrings)  huzbub huzbub

(Neil-SYSOP) OK.  Before we begin let's jest quick-like review the 
 procedures.  First -- Never type unless it is your turn. This is because 
 the CIS computer will go out on us if we all type at once.  The moderator 
 (me) will call for questions...ONLY WHEN I DO...type a question mark and 
 hit return. I will see that and put you down, in an order of speaking.
 When it is your turn to speak answer OK<return> right away. Ask your 
 question or make your comment and when done say DONE<return>.

<Editor's Note: All of protocol traffic (OK and DONE answers, Neil asking
 for questions and calling on people), as well as all remarks people typed
 out of turn have been edited out.  For the most part everyone obeyed the
 CO protocol and waited to be called on to type.>

 Then our guest can answer you!  And speaking of our guest....
 Here with us tonight is ANDY HERTZFELD one of the original Mac Team 
 members as well as a guy who has long been associated with almost all 
 Apple's product line and who is now doing some great new things on the
 Mac and on his own!!  Andy, welcome to MAUG!!! And let's start the ball 
 rolling.  If you have a question for Andy please hit question

 <Many, many question marks>

(Neil-SYSOP) Bill Gibson your question...go!

(Bill Gibson) Andy how has Steve Jobs been taking the recent reorganization
 at Apple?

(Andy Hertzfeld) Well, he, like everyone else is trying to adjust to it.  
 The last time I talked with him he was still pretty upset.

(James Schenck) ANDY = I'd like to know what is happening with SWITCHER 

(Andy Hertzfeld) I'm currently on 4.0, which has been thoroughly tested
 and should be uploaded here and shipped to dealers before the end
 of the month.  I'm not working on it anymore until the fall.

(Tom Mackie) Andy - 2 quick ques... 1. IS there a problem with 4.0 and 
 the MiniFinder?  2. Do you suggest using a RAMdisk config as 128K, or  
 doesn't it matter?

(Andy Hertzfeld) As far as I know, the only problem with the MiniFinder
 is that buttons sometimes stay highlited.  Use a RAM disk with Switcher if
 you only want to run two applications or you have more than 512K.  
(Jerome Garfunkel) What is the future of the MacIntosh without Steve Jobs?

(Andy Hertzfeld) Pretty much the same as the future would be with him.  
 Steve's greatest strength was creating something new, not enhancing 
 something that already exists.  I feel confident that Mac will continue 
 to grow and be supported;  I'm less confident that Apple will be able to 
 create the "next Mac" without Steve.  

(Fred Humbert) Andy,  what would you envision as Apples next
 MAJOR move with the Mac, color, open box, or size of screen.
(Andy Hertzfeld) I think color is the least likely of the things you 
 mentioned.  There are degrees of "open box"; it's certain the next Mac 
 will be more open hardware-wise, but I'm not sure by how much.  A bigger 
 screen is real easy to do and it's likely that you'll see a variety of 
 screen sizes.  
(Chris (DOTP)) Andy, before switcher 2.5 I talked you about our Time and 
 Mousepos da's using the right menu bar that you use for arrows.  You said 
 the arrows could be turned off.  I can't find the command in the switcher 
 doc to turn off the arrows. 
(Andy Hertzfeld) There is a way to turn off the arrows under program 
 control.  I'm writing a document called "Inside Switcher" that reveals 
 that and many other little tricks.  It should be finished and uploaded 
 here in a week or so.  
(Chris (DOTP)) Thanks!

(Harry Conover) Andy, thanks for Switcher AND for Thunder Scanner... terms of HARD DRIVES.. I unnerstand you prefer MacBottom. Why ?

(Andy Hertzfeld) I can't really say that I prefer MAcBottom because I don't
 have one yet as I couldn't live without my Hyper.  

(Harry Conover) Now, about ApType... [smile]


(Andy Hertzfeld) I guess it was Steve Jobs' idea.  Jef Raskin hates mice;  
 when Steve took over he changed the direction of the project to "the 
 people's Lisa".  Bill Atkinson was a big supporter of the mouse for Lisa. 

(Bill Bates) Andy, If I'm sending, thanks for promoting my ThunderScan to 
 LaserWriter package... that's it. 

(Andy Hertzfeld) You're welcome.  I didn't try too hard to include in the 
 next release of the TScan software because I saw that you had already 
 done it.  
(Steve Ura) Andy- Will the finder in ROM hurt those
 with non-Apple 512K and/or Hyperdrives? 

(Andy Hertzfeld) The Finder will not be in ROM in the 128K ROMs.  Most 
 everybody will be able to easily upgrade to the 128K ROMs since all Macs 
 have socketed ROMs.
(T. N. May) ANDY: This is an impossible question to answer briefly, but
 I"d like your opinion on the growth of AI. Not just LISP 
 and the languages, but AI as an industry.  Some say it will
 be a $1.1 billion industry by 1989.  Possible?
(Andy Hertzfeld) Alan Kay calls AI the "designer jeans" of computer 
 science.  I think AI is too vague and all encompassing term to be 
 meaningful.  Some AI techniques will be very important and others
 will not be.  
(Mark Kopec) Andy, with firms such as Atari offering a new, low-cost 
 alternative to the 512k Mac, what effect do feel these new machines will 
 have on Apple sales and the company in general.  
(Andy Hertzfeld) I have an Atari 520 ST and while I'm impressed with some 
 aspects of it, in general I think it's nothing like the Mac software-wise.
 The net effect of low cost Mac imitators will probably be to push the
 price of the Mac lower, which is good for the customers, and maybe even 
 good for Apple.  
(Eric Wainwright) Which parts of the ROM did you actually write, and
 which part was the hardest?  
(Andy Hertzfeld) I wrote about 30 percent of the ROM including most of the
 Toolbox (everything except TextEdit, Resources and Dialogs).  Different 
 parts are hard for different reasons.  The most intense part was IOCore, 
 because you have to worry about interrupt-type problems.  Much of the
 toolbox was difficult because I had to re-write it many time because our
 goals kept changing.  So far, I have written five different font managers!

(Bill Gibson) Andy, I have two questions. 1. How far off are 128k ROMs and 
 did you help write them too.  are there any plans to support the Lazer 
 writer at 300 DPI?

(Andy Hertzfeld) The only thing I did for the new ROMS was a new font 
 manager.  The new font manager supports fractional character widths which
 will be a big help at improving the laserWriter at 300 dpi  

(Jim Leslie) Neil have you used any of the cache floppy utilities now
 being advertised, and if so, do they provide a better solution..

(Andy Hertzfeld) Caches are certainly much better than RAM disks, but they 
 also require quite a bit of memory to be effective. I use TurboCharger, 
 but not that much because the version I have doesn't work with hard disks.

(Monte Pescador (MUR) Speaking for the group here in my room.  The Mac 
 Users of the Rogue Valley.  We have tried getting the stores and even one 
 of the Apple Reps. in Lake Oswego to help us with our group and it isn't 
 working.  I am beginning to feel that Apple has no feelings for the small 
 Usr Groups.  What is Apple doing?  Also, is there going to be a new 
 Font/DA Mover that will work on a regular 128K?

(Andy Hertzfeld) I was involved with one of the very first Apple ][ users 
 groups in 1978 so I appreciate how much they can help people.  I know that
 Woz is a big fan of user's groups and will speak at almost any one he's 
 invited too.  It's not really Apple's responsibility to help with user's
 groups.  Why not join up with another nearby group? As far as the Font/DA
 mover is concerned, yes, the bugs have been fixed and it will be 
 distributed at the next convenient time  
(Neil-SYSOP) Just want to add... The International Apple Corps (IAC) helps 
 their member users groups a lot! drop me a note on the SIG and I will give
 you address!


(Andy Hertzfeld) there won't be any new software for the Lisa OS or new 
 peripherals, but other than that the machines will be well supported. 
 What do you want? 

(Neil-SYSOP) Guess I missed the question (losing lines) but that
 would be a great thread and we'll pass along the comments
 to Apple!!  Meanwhile... John Gallagher is next...go John!

(John Gallaugher) ANDY, In your opinion... What is the best development 
 system for the Macintosh.. and  WHY ?

(Andy Hertzfeld) A lot depends on what languages you like and your
 personal working style.  I write all my programs in assembly and use the 
 MDS system.  I expect the forthcoming "MPS" system from Apple (which 
 includes a C and Pascal compiler, as well as an assembler) to be the most
 popular environment if it ever gets finished.  

(Bob Abeles) What delights do you have in store for us?

(Andy Hertzfeld) Well, I'm trying to take it easy this summer.  I'm
 currently working on a double-sized cursor hack for some near-sighted 
 MAUGers who requested it.  I'm planning some major enhancements to 
 Switcher in the Fall (disk based partitions) and a few other things
 that are too ephemeral to talk about now  


(Andy Hertzfeld) yeah, but with TScan they'd be more like "dot codes"
 than bar codes.  I really would like to get around to that one because I 
 think I could fit about 40K on a single page.  Thanks for reminding me...

(Andy Hertzfeld) It's certainly possible to do it with ThunderScan, but it 
 may be too slow to be real practical.  I think Bill Bates, who was here

(Bill Bates) Still is...

(Andy Hertzfeld) a little while ago, has something along those lines
 already working.  

(Neil-SYSOP) Bill Bates..want to comment?? 

(Bill Bates) Anyway, I have Thundercan to PostScript software.  Also some 
 experimental ThunderScan OCR.  I'm also getting good results with 
 MacVision which can go to very high horizontal res but has vertical scan 
 lines in the picture.  I'm trying to build a poor man's Kurtzwile (sp?). 

(Dave Vargo) What are your impressions of the Amiga, is it a more worthy
 competitor to the Mac than the Atari St. In terms of the Lisa, a mail 
 merge program should have been offered if the machine was seriously 
 intended to appeal to business. 

(Andy Hertzfeld) I don't have an Amiga, but I played with one.  It has 
 significantly more capabilities than the Atari, but it will be priced a
 lot more expensively.  The Amiga's sound capabilities are truly
 great, blowing away both the Mac and the Atari.  I think software
 is what matters the most, and both atari and Amiga are WAY behind
 the Mac in that regard.  Don't ask me about mail merge, that's
 a question for some marketing guy.  You may be right, but its
 beyond me  
(Fred Humbert) Andy, what do you know about Haba's double sided drive
 and why isn't any body at apple rushing to get one out?  

(Andy Hertzfeld) I haven't seen or tried haba's drive, but I would avoid
 it as its sure to be different than Apple's.  Apple's double sided drive 
 is great, it seeks and changes speed much faster than the old one.  They 
 are rushing to get it out, but they are a big company so things often seem
 to move slowly.  I would expect it to be available around the end of
 the year, but don't quote me.  

(Richard Rae) Andy, first, a hearty THANK YOU!. Secondly, How did Mr. 
 Sculley react when you showed him the Pepsi Cap demo? I've always wanted 
 to know. 

(Andy Hertzfeld) He didn't react much one way or the other.  He just 
 smiled a little  

(Neil-SYSOP) David S. (For Sushi) Rose is next!!! Go David!

(Harry Conover) [crowd roars]

(David Rose) Hi Andy!  Can we expect to see you at the next official
 MAUG sushi lunch on July 24th in New York? 

(Andy Hertzfeld) Unfortunately, I seem to have a habit of missing Sushi 
 lunches.  I'm going to leave for the west coast on July 23rd.  I'll be 
 back in NYC on July 30th, but I guess I'll miss it.  Can you have it two 
 days earlier?  
(Neil-SYSOP) Back to you David!

(Harry Conover) say yes, David

(David Rose) How about August 22nd then at Mac Expo?

(Andy Hertzfeld) Yes, I'll definitely be there 

(David Rose) OK, OK, we'll change the date!  Stay tuned!! 

('Bill C/Alt) There has been much speculation about the next version of the
 MAC having a 68010 or a 68020 Processor.  Comment on the possibility and 
 are these processors capable of being compatable with the 68000 (upward)
 second Will Apple release the details of the 7/7 operating 
 system so that third party support will be possible??

(Andy Hertzfeld) Exception handling is different on the 010 and 020
 so there can be some compatibility problems.  The new (128K) ROM will be
 compatible with both the 010 and 020 but everybody's applications
 may not be.  The truth is that Apple has at least 3 candidates for the
 "next Mac" under development so its hard to say which ones will be
 for real.   I see no reason that Apple wouldn't release source code
 to the Lisa OS, as they are not supporting themselves anymore and
 would love to have some third pary support it  

(Martin Shelby) Hi, Andy. I was one of many wowed at Drexel...
 Just what will be on the 128K ROM? Why was the system and finder 
 disk-based?  Time limitations?

(Andy Hertzfeld) The Finder is disk based because we knew we didn't have
 it right yet.  There were also severe space limitations.  We tried to put 
 the most important stuff in the ROM.  By the way, they're out
 of space on the 128K ROM now and might have to leave some
 planned stuff out.  It's funny how you never have enough space.  

(Mike Ginsberg) Andy, I now have a 128K mac and would upgrade to 512k IF
 The switcher would allow me to do multitasking.
 Any possibility of me upgrading my mac in the near future?  

(Andy Hertzfeld) The Switcher supports a limited form of multi-tasking; 
 applications have to be modified to take advantage of it.  The new version
 of ThunderScan can scan in the background under Switcher now.  You should
 want to upgrade for more important reasons than that, though  

(David Rose) Andy: How about sushi this Wed the 24th? 

(Andy Hertzfeld) you mean the 17th?

(David Rose) Jeez, yes...sorry!

(Andy Hertzfeld) OK

(Howard S. Goldberg) the amiga and the st are both color.
 any chance of the Mac having color soon 
(Andy Hertzfeld) eventually be a color Mac, but not until the second half 
 of 1986 at the earliest  

(Neil-SYSOP) Howard...Andy said not til second half of 86 earliest

(Steve Brecher) A list of ROM bugs not patched in RAM is not available 
 from Tech Support.  You've mentioned several such bugs in MAUG messages. 
 Would you consider making a list of those you know about and uploading it?
(Andy Hertzfeld) Sure, I could try but it wouldn't be as complete as the 
 one that Apple has.  Also, some things tread the fine line between bugs
 and features so are a matter of personal opinion.  When I'm back
 next week, I'll try to convince them to make the "official" list
 used by the 128K ROM people available  

(Steve Brecher) Understood.  Thanks!

(David Heller) Andy, i want to do my own 512k upgrade but i keep hearing 
 rumors that it will not be compatible with the new ROM upgrade.
 Can you give me the straight Dope on this?

(Andy Hertzfeld) Most RAM upgrades should be perfectly compatible with the 
 512K  (Sorry) new 128K ROM so there should be no problem.  Just
 be careful  

(Keith Esau) Is there any way to create or plan to support .MAP files from 
 lisa pascal for use with MacDB 

(Andy Hertzfeld) Sure, it's certainly possible.  You'd have to write a
 translator to pull the symbols out of the ".OBJ" format into
 the ".MAP" format.  Since both formats are fairly simple and
 well documented, it wouldn't be hard, BUT Apple is working
 hard on their own new development environment that will have
 a symbolic debugger that's not compatible with either format, so
 maybe it would be a waste of effort 


(Andy Hertzfeld) Sure.  You can give me a call.

(Dennis Alvernaz) Andy, what performance in speed is probable
 with new ROMS and where?  

(Andy Hertzfeld) The resource manager is the single place that was speeded 
 up the most.  Beleive it or not, but QuickDraw was significantly speeded
 up, too, as well as a bunch of other places.  It's difficult to say since
 every application does things a little differently, but new ROMs
 coupled with the new 3.5 drives cupt application
 launch time at least in half, usually more  


(Andy Hertzfeld) It depends entirely on the program you're running.  Most
 applications won't be speeded up at all in a 1 meg environment over 512K, 
 but you could afford to run a RAM-disk or cache that could speed
 things up alot.  It all depends on how the particular application
 accesses the disk.  No applications currently tune themselves
 for a 1Meg environment  

(Andy Pickett) Andy, any word on the 20 meg that plugs
 Andy, any word on the 20 meg that plugs into the disk-drive port, how can
 we get info? And... What are your thoughts on NEON! by Kriya Systems?

(Andy Hertzfeld) Apple has announced the 20 meg drive that plugs into the 
 disk port.  They realize it's very important to get it out ASAP so 
 they're working real hard on it now.  It will use the new hierarchical
 file system loaded in RAM, because it will be out before the
 new ROMs are available.  A consequence of that is it will only
 run on 512K or bigger machines.  More info should be available
 in the fall.  Neon is an interesting idea, but good language
 systems take a long time to mature and theirs is still in its
 very early stages.  I think it's not yet a practical environment
 for commercial programming, but is interesting for fun  

(Neil-SYSOP) Well...I am going to turn the meeting over to
 Dennis Brothers! I have a breakfast appointment and have to

(Harry Conover) oh oh, here comes the ol' catch an early train line.

(Neil-SYSOP) take a verrrrrrrrrry early train!!!  Andy-> Thanks very much 
 for being here and when it gets too late for you just say UNLCE and Dennis
 will close the meeting!

(Andy Hertzfeld) You're welcome!

(Neil-SYSOP) Again, thanks very much!!!!! Dennis-> Carry that tirch!!!! 
 Go! <torch!!!!!>

(Dennis/AltSysop) Franklin - go with your question.

(Franklin Tessler) This node is going crazy... sorry.  Andy: Apple
 has announced an October shipping date for the 20 Meg drives...
 did you mean earlier then that the ROMs would be out after
 that.  Also, will Switcher 4.0 be an "official" release?  

<Editor's Note: At this point, the CIS node that Andy and I were both using
 hiccoughed, so there was a bit of confusion>

(Dennis/AltSysop) Andy? Andy - did you see Franklin's question?

(Harry Conover) Most of us did, Andy.

(Andy Hertzfeld) Switcher 4.0 is the official released version.  Yes, the 
 hard disk is currently supposed to come out before the new ROMs, so it 
 will run the new file system in RAM  

(Brad Holt) Andy - Is there any chance us number crunchers will be able to 
 turn in our VAX's for a MAC with a co-processor soon, and second, what is
 the state of Atari and Comm. software compared to the MAC's when new? 
(Andy Hertzfeld) I've seen machines on the drawing board that have a socket
 for the Motorola math chip; it's also possible to do a HyperDrive-type 
 math chip product for the current Mac.  From what I've seen, both the 
 Atari and Amiga software is in the same state Mac software was in in 
 about early 1982;  i.e., its got a long way to go.  

(Craig McGowan) Any comments on the suitability of the current
 os in terms of networking?

(Andy Hertzfeld) I think the current OS is OK for networking

(Craig McGowan) In other words, how do I write a program

(Andy Hertzfeld) except that (sorry, go ahead)

(Craig McGowan) did anything get through?

(Andy Hertzfeld) Yes, but I'm waiting for you to finish

(Craig McGowan) i don't know what happpend but, basically, my question was 
 regarding the ability of the the current os to handle network events 
 without polling.  

(Andy Hertzfeld) Yes, the Mac currently does handle network events without
 polling in software.  The SCC chip does header recognition in hardware and
 interrupts the OS when a packet comes in.  The current AppleTalk software 
 is fairly sophisticated;  the only real improvement that needs to be made 
 is that the file system doesn't handle concurrency very well yet.  
(Randall Merkh) hi andy, What do you think of the Mac Revealed book?  

(Andy Hertzfeld) I think it's pretty good, but still incomplete.  I haven't
 seen the 2nd volume yet, which is necessary if you want to write real 
 programs.  It works best as a supplement to Inside Mac, rather than a 
 replacement for it.  

(Tom Mackie) Andy - two ques... 1. The 3.0 doc says that Config for Laser 
 will be left out of the release version. Why?   2. Cuppertino is still the
 bleak hole for USMail - is there a way to get ananswer to serious hardware
 problems from them? (The local Reps say they don't really have much 

(Andy Hertzfeld) Room for LaserWriter was removed from Switcher because the
 printing software was improved so things should work OK in a 128K 
 configuration (all except for MacWrite).  It was confusing people so I 
 removed it.  If you're having trouble reaching Apple by mail, try calling 
 them at (408) 996-1010; if you're persistent enough, you'll always get to 
 talk to someone who can help you  

(Bill Gibson) A simple question. What is the status of MacBASIC and is Doug
 Dennman still writing it.  Also what does one do to Beta test for Apple?

(Andy Hertzfeld) MacBasic is all finished (finally).  It was written by
 Donn Denmann (not Doug).  The only hold-up now is Apple trying to decide 
 if its worth releasing it, given the fact that MicroSoft Basic has gotten
 fairly good and the headaches involved in maintaining and supporting a new
 programming environment.  If you want to be a beta-test site for Apple, 
 send a letter to someone like Guy Kawasaki (or maybe a message to Dan 
 Cochran on MAUG)  
(Steve Rabalais) 1. IS IT POSSIBLE TO LOAD AND LOCK A CODE resource in more
 than 64k bytes.

(Andy Hertzfeld) Yes, its possible.  The problem has more to do with the 
 limitations of the 68000 than the Mac system.  Since relative branches are
 limited to 16-bit signed offsets, it's hard to have a code segment bigger
 than 32K and still have every part be able to branch to every other
 part.  A linker could be constructed to handle it, but why bother?  

(Bob Shankle) Andy, pertaining to MacBASIC...perhaps you could pass along 
 to the powers to be that some users would like to stay "all Mac" in 
 software...and, how does it feel to have 300,000 followers ready to
 pick your <sushi> bones clean?   
(Andy Hertzfeld) It would be a mistake to try to stay "all Apple" in the
 software you buy, because Apple can't develope and innovate programs as 
 quickly as the third party community.  Like any artist, it thrills
 and motivates me to have an appreciative audience for my work. 
(David Heller) Andy, if i do my own upgrade is apple going to support me 
 on the ROM upgrade and do you have any idea what the approx cost of the
 ROM upgrade will be?  

(Andy Hertzfeld) If you upgrade to more than 512K, make sure to keep the
 screen at the top of the address space.  Apple will try to sell the
 ROMs as cheaply as they can.  Since the ROMs will cost Apple around 20 
 dollars, I would expect them to sell for around 60 dollars or so. 

(Eric Zocher) Two Q's: 1) Can you reveal any specifics about the contents
 of the additional space in the new ROM(s) - will system resources like
 Chicago FONT, MDEFs, WDEFs, CDEFs be in silicon?  2) Do you know when & 
 how info will be available about the new hierarchical file system?  Will 
 software supplement purchasers be getting a new File Manager chapter
 of IM?   THANKS in advance!  

(Andy Hertzfeld) The new ROM isn't frozen yet, so things are subject to
 change, but I would expect the Chicago font (but no other fonts),
 WDEF 0, MDEF 0, CDEFs for buttons and scrollbars and most of the PACKS
 to be in the ROM.  Info on the new file system should be available to 
 developers through the normal channels pretty soon.  The new file system
 is compatible with the old except for people who follow the FCB list
 (the FCB size is different) or read the directory themselves.  Most
 software will run just fine because the "vRefNum" will mean the working
 directory instead of default volume  

(Dennis/AltSysop) Just a note - "Normal channels" includes DL8 of MacDev.

(Tim Pulling) Will there be an upgrade to replace the internal
 drive with a double sided drive?  I've heard there might be heat 
 considerations. Thanks. Done.

(Andy Hertzfeld) Yes, there will be an upgrade to replace the internal
 drive.  It will be optionally bundled with the new ROM so you only have
 to open the Mac up once.  It will be available in the same time frame
 as the new ROM   

(David Heller) 3 quick ques.  1 is MacinTalk completelt in the Public
 Domain?   2 Do you know where i can find info on accessing Macintalk?
 3 do you know the location in memory that i can PEEK from MSBASIC to get
 the DAY of the week?  DONE.  Thanks.

(Andy Hertzfeld) MacinTalk is not in the public domain, but like Switcher
 was purchased by Apple and will be made available for a very small
 license fee.  Information will be made available pretty soon, as
 soon as the software is ready.  There is no low memory location
 that has the day of the week.  There is a location that has the
 calendar clock time in seconds since Jan 1, 1904.  You have to call
 Pack 6 to convert that into the day of week, and I'm not
 sure how to do that from Basic.  

(Dennis/AltSysop) David - MacinTalk is available _now_ as part of the
 Software Supplement in SS.INF in DL8 there.

(Bill Gibson) How has the recent corporate changes that consolidated the II
 and Mac Divisions affected your work environment.  i.e. got any news for
 the Apple II fans out here?  

(Andy Hertzfeld) First off, I don't work there anymore, but I hang around
 a lot and have a lot of friends that do.  I don't think the dust has
 settled yet, so it's too early to say the directions that things will go
 in.  Engineering seems to be pretty unaffected by the changes;  Apple ][
 and Mac engineering are in seperate buildings and have totally separate
 management, etc.  I'm not sure what you mean by news for Apple ][ fans,
 though;  they were working on new Apple ][s for long before the re-org

(Dennis/AltSysop) A note on that - developer support is being consolidated
 and you can expect to see a lot of Apple II tools available on MAUG(tm).

(Christian Doucet) Is it possible for several Macs to Share the same file
 in R/W mode on an AppleTalk File Server?  And what you think of the
 MacAdvantage Development Sodtware?? 

(Andy Hertzfeld) If the File Server is based on the Mac file system, it is
 not currently possible.  It is certainly possible to extend the file
 system (or implement a new one) to accomplish that.  I haven't used
 MacAdvantage and don't know very much about it.  I think that's based on
 a p-code type interpreter, which I'm not very fond of, though.   


(Andy Hertzfeld) The underlying hardware is pretty different on an XL from
 the Mac, so there are are number of different types of incompatibilies
 that arise.  Most of them have to do with I/O in some form or another. 
 Of course, the XL does not have Macs sound capabilities, and any
 application that writes directly to the screen must be careful about
 rowBytes.  In general, applications will run on the XL if the developers
 care enough to code for it and thoroughly test them in that environment.  

(Mike Bailey) When can we expect MacPascal floating point routines to
 appear and from where.  

(Andy Hertzfeld) As far as I know, MacPascal from Think already does
 support the SANE numerics package.  The compiler based environment
 that runs on the Lisa also supports them, as will any new environment
 from Apple.  

(Dennis/AltSysop) Dare I say it?... Harry is next. Be good, Harry.

(Harry Conover) Andy, when I boot my copy of ApType it says go out and buy
 a knew even then, dincha ? [smile]    [there, I was good]

(Andy Hertzfeld) What is ApType?  

(Dennis/AltSysop) Well Harry?

(Harry Conover) Lil program you supposedly wrote for Call Apple in 1978

(Andy Hertzfeld) I don't remember it.  Mac wasn't conceived of till 1979  

(Harry Conover) [this was SUPPOSED to be comic relief]

(Dave Vargo) Is there a chance of the 7/7 bug making draft printing slower
 than high quality being fixed. I don't expect new software but bug fixes
 are the responsibility of the manufacturer. Also are there plans for a
 Mac compatible portable?

(Andy Hertzfeld) I think there are currently two programmers working
 full-time on maintaining the 7/7 software so there is a good chance the
 bug will get fixed.  A portable Mac still looks pretty far away, since
 it's still real tough to make a good-looking display with Mac resolution. 
(Christian Doucet) Is there any chances that we see a Color Mac
 Before Jan 24 86? And also what about Screen buffer size? 

(Andy Hertzfeld) I don't think you'll see a color Mac anytime at all in
 1986, really.  I'm not sure what you mean about screen buffer size;  I
 think there's a good chance you'll see a black and white Mac with
 a bigger screen and more dots in early 86.  
(Tim Pulling) I think that the TScan is there any chance
 we'll see a lasso-type selection device that would make selecting oddly
 shaped areas to half tone?  (easier that is)

(Andy Hertzfeld) I really wanted to put that feature into my new release
 (I know how to do it; its not that hard) but I ran out of time so it won't
 be in the new release that will be available shortly.  I promise to do it
 for the release after that, which will probably be around the end of the

(Doug Quebbeman) Andy, 1st, will the Lisa Smalltalk find its way to the Mac,
 2nd will the 32x32 mouse cursor have an editor/picker for the resource
 editor or a separate application for editing the cursor.

(Andy Hertzfeld) Lisa SmallTalk should be available for the Mac, since Dan
 Ingalls, the world's leading SmallTalk expert, has been working real hard
 on it.  I've seen it running on a 512K Mac, but I'm not sure what the
 marketting plans are.  The 32 by 32 cursor is going to bit-double the
 16 by 16 cursor (that's the only way to do it and maintain software
 compatibility, although I might special-case the arrow) so a special
 resEdit driver is not necessary.  

(Tom Mackie) Andy, much has been reported - especially on ARPAnet- as to
 power supply/overheating problems. Can you comment? And do you indeed run
 you Mac with the cover off?  

(Andy Hertzfeld) Apple is pretty careful about testing things like that,
 but its always possible to get a bad batch of components in and have
 it slip through quality control.  Before I got my Hyper, I used to run
 a Mac without a cover, but that had nothing to do with overheating;
 I was diddling around with the hardware about so it was more convenient
 to leave the cover off.  I did get a bad electric shock once;
 I wouldn't recommend it.  

(Eric Zocher) I just heard a rumor that a 24-pin Imagewriter II with
 2 - 3 times the throughput of the Imagewriter is in the works.
 Care to comment?  

(Andy Hertzfeld) Yes, it's true, except I'm not sure how many elements are
 on the printhead.  It is considerably faster and does have much nicer
 print quality.  

(Laney Chouest) The folks at Odesta Helix tell me that they are waiting
 for "standards" for the network and fileserver before they release
 multi-user software.. Could you comment.. I am desperately looking for
 the macintosh office..I need it

(Andy Hertzfeld) The network standards are pretty well established by now,
 but the file server protocols are not, so it is prudent for them to wait. 
 The whole file server situation is pretty confused right now,
 so I don't know what to tell you.  

(Dennis/AltSysop) Tech Note 20 is on Data Servers on AppleTalk - it's in
 MacDev DL8.

(Laney Chouest) On the Fileserver Will file password protection be on the
 fileserver system or in the application software?

(Andy Hertzfeld) I don't know.  Apple was developing a file server that had
 some form of password protection in the system, but it was recently
 cancelled and I'm not sure what the current strategy is.  

(Vernon Keenan) I'm shopping for C compiler...can you recommend one?

(Andy Hertzfeld) Most people I know use the Consulair C compiler.  It does
 not generate very tight code, but it is fairly mature and is well
 interfaced to the Mac system.  Apple has a C compiler that should be
 released as part of the MPS development system, but its currently

(Dennis/AltSysop) Latest release of Consulair Mac C generates code about as
 good as any of the other native Mac Cs but it doesn't come close to
 Workshop C.

(David Heller) Andy:  I want to do some mass printing on 3 x 5 index cards
 without having to reformat each doc.  is there any future for the
 Imagewriter driver in which the user can specify the Exact horiz and vert
 dimensions of the paper?  and if so, do you know when?

(Andy Hertzfeld) The architecture of the printing software should enable
 you to do that but I'm not sure if and when there will be an
 implementation to support it.  

(Dennis/AltSysop) David - everything you need to do that is in MacU DL3...
 do an "S PREC??.*/DES".

(David Jacobs) Will there ever be an Apple Profile that can hook up to
 both the Mac and Apple II.

(Andy Hertzfeld) I think the new 20Meg external drive from Apple will be
 capable of doing that, since it interfaces through the IWM, which is
 common to both Mac and the Apple ][.  All it would take is a driver for
 ProDos and probably some ProDos -> Mac conversion software that I think
 they're already working on.  One of the advantages of the recent
 re-organization is that things like that should be much more likely to

(Andy Hertzfeld) I'm getting pretty tired... can we call it quits soon?


(Andy Hertzfeld) Because of the way the printing software is implemented. 
 It's possible for it to do that, but it would only look marginally better.
 In high-res that ImageWriter uses bigger fonts with a lot more information
 in them, but to print a MacPaint bitMap, it would have to bit-double so
 the improvement would only be slight.  

(Dennis/AltSysop) That brings this conference to a close, and I'd like to

(Andy Hertzfeld) I can go on for a little longer, or should we call it

(Dennis/AltSysop) thank Andy, on behalf of MAUG(tm) both for being here
 this evening, and for all he's done for the Macintosh community.

(Andy Hertzfeld) You're welcome -- it was alot of fun!

(Dennis/AltSysop)  OOoopss....Well, There were three more questioners
 lined up - want to take them?

(Andy Hertzfeld) OK

(Tom Mackie) Andy, is coding for the Atari etc. similar enough so that it
 (may) tend to expand the software base for developers?  

(Andy Hertzfeld) No, it's really very different.  It would be possible to
 write a MacWorks for the Atari and then it would be easy, but that's not
 an easy thing to do and I doubt if anyone will.  GEM seems to have
 about half the capability of the Mac ROMS.  

(Bill Bates) Laurie wants anyone working with cursors to know.
 That left-pointing arrows are biased against southpaws (she's one).
 Ignore her. I do. DONE FOR SURE

(Dennis/AltSysop) Easy to redefine.

(Andy Hertzfeld) I'm also a southpaw, as were about 40% of the Mac
 development team (Burrell Smith, Bruce Horn, George Crow, etc).  I don't
 find it to be a problem, though. 

(Brad Pettit) Are there any planned updates to MacPascal that will make it
 easier to use the toolbox or that will permit more sizable applications.

(Andy Hertzfeld) If you mean the interactive Pascal from Think Technologies, 
 they are currently working on a "developer's version" that should
 be quite practical for writing large applications.  It will have the
 option of generating native code, while retaining it's unique interactive
 flavor.  Last March they siad it would be ready in the fall, but
 I haven't heard about it recently.  

(Dennis/AltSysop) (There's supposed to be an update to the interactive
 version "in time for the fall semester")

(Dennis/AltSysop) I guess that's it - OK by you, Andy?

(Andy Hertzfeld) OK, it was fun!

(Dennis/AltSysop) I won't make my pretty speech again, just let me say

<And at this point Andy left, and the CO degenerated into the free-for-all
 that all MAUG(tm) COers know and love>

----------------------------That's it!---------------------------------------

Ephraim Vishniac
  [apollo, bbncca, cadmus, decvax, harvard, linus, masscomp]!wanginst!vishniac
  vishniac%[email protected]